Mouna Abdelhamid and Jumana Ibrahim

[00:00] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Ready? My name is Mouna Abdelhamid I am 55 years old. Today is June 3, 2023. I am at the Alif Institute, the Arab cultural center, with Jumana, my daughter.

[00:17] JUMANA IBRAHIM: My name is Jumana Ibrahim. I'm 20 years old. Today is June 3, 2023, and I'm at the Elif Institute talking with my mom. Okay, mama. So in your young life, you moved around to a couple different countries before your family settled in? Armand. So what was your experience living in those different countries, especially from, like, quit all the way to Spain and then to Jordan?

[00:55] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: I was very young, so I have memories, but I'm not sure if those memories are reality sometimes, or are they something that from pictures? And I put them together, but I don't remember Kuwait at all. I was very young. I left when I was four. But I do remember Spain. We lived in the south of Spain. We lived in the area terra Molinos by Malaga. We were part of. My parents and my uncles had hotels there. They had three hotels, five star hotels. They ran. So it was fun. You know, you always see different people. And so we were young. We were at school. I do remember my school. It was up on a mountain, very outdoorsy and things like that. So I do remember that we had the lionesse. Actually, not personally. We had a lion. The hotel had a lion. My uncle had. I don't know where he got it from. He was a little puppy, and then he grew into a full grown lion. And sometimes walking around it would put some fear into people. So we had that. But he was very tame, and I remember that very well. Again, I don't know if it's the pictures or my memory, but I think it has affected a big part of me, and not just because where we lived. I think it's just being able to move and adapt a little bit faster to things and being exposed to different cultures. I think it has affected the way I can change and acclimate when life takes you in different ways.

[02:41] JUMANA IBRAHIM: What is your first, earliest, clearest memory? I mean, I know you think you made some up from photos, but what do you think is your earliest memory of the same? No, most of your life?

[02:51] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Honestly, I don't know if this is an earliest memory, but this is something I remember a lot when I was young, because after Spain, my parents sent me to Jordan by myself. I was around six. It was starting elementary school. So my parents decided that I went and lived with my grandmother in Amman, and I stayed with her for two years. The second year, my brother came, and then my parents decided that's enough. So they all moved to Jordan, and that's where we stayed until, you know, I came to the United States when I was 27. But I do remember with my grandmother, and that is vivid. That's not pictures, because I don't have pictures of this. Sadly, my grandmother passed away. I do remember in the morning, my bus used to come very early to pick us up to school. And there was always in the morning, she always had milk, warm milk, and she was smoke cake. What is it called in English? The crackers, the long ones where you dip them in milk. And she always had those. And it was the first thing you see. And for some reason, I never sat on a regular table. I always sat on a very low table. We call it tablighe. I don't know why she had it in her balcony. And we would sit there and that's what it would have every morning. What else do I remember? And the other thing is her going to the baker. No, not the baker. It's where they bake. But they had these public, like, the pizza ovens, where they do the breads. And she would take Mamul for the holidays and she would put it on her head and she would walk up the hill with it, although we were in the city. But she did it the way she used to do it in Palestine. And she would walk up the hill and take it there to be baked after they had prepped all the cookies for that, because they would do so many quantities, the regular ovens in the house, that's not enough. So I remember her with that. She would wear her traditional palestinian clothes and then walk up there and get it cooked. So I don't know. That's what I remember.

[05:13] JUMANA IBRAHIM: Um. I don't know what's happening. What about remembering your grandmother? Like, makes you happy? Like, it's certain moments that you think about. I mean, you said a couple of them, but there is anything I don't.

[05:32] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Know about making happy. She was just a. She was a tough lady. She wasn't an easy lady, but very sweet and loving, but definitely a straightforward woman. I think she was a typical palestinian woman who went through, you know, the diaspora, and everything that she went through made her stronger. But she appreciated education very highly because she was an illiterate woman. She did not read and write. They, before they left Palestine, they lived on, they had their farmland, so they had orange groves. They were property owners and. And farmers. So really she was not educated in that sense. Life was her education, but not schooling. But after the diaspora and after 1948 and them leaving their homes and then ending up in Jordan in 67, she has the high appreciation, understanding for education, because she knew there is nothing else to fall back onto as Palestinians who've been, you know, outside their land. There was nothing. So she had ten kids, six girls and four boys, and she made sure, she told them, you have nothing except education. So she made sure all of them finished university and became professionals. And it's pretty impressive, you know, for an illiterate woman to be able to do that. And so she was very firm and she was very tough, but I don't think she's the only one. I think everybody who went through that, you see that they became like this and understood what education is different when you're home and when you're in your own land and house, sometimes, you know, you fall back on something else. So there was nothing else to fall back onto. And then she also instilled a sense, I was young, but I watched through my life. She instilled a sense of responsibility in her kids. So it wasn't like she was taking care of them. Everybody was taking care of everybody. So when you had the oldest, between the oldest and the youngest was around 25 years, so it's a totally different generation. So my youngest aunts and their nephew and nieces from their older sister were the same age. They were studying high school at the same time. They did the taujihi, which is like the IB, the last. So there was a competition between them. So she made sure that the oldest were actually, they'd finish, then they graduate, they make sure they start teaching the youngest and their responsibility kept going down. So actually the older brothers and sisters are the ones who actually, the older brothers, the older three brothers are the ones who made sure, covered everybody's expenses and they worked and they made sure. So it was pretty impressive. I think that's always stuck with me, that kind of responsibility, and there's no playing around. It was not a choice whether you want to go to school or not, or whether you want to continue at your university. That is not a choice, that's just the natural path of things that are going to happen. So.

[09:05] JUMANA IBRAHIM: And then from that thought, have you kind of taken that into your own life and kind of adapted that idea and policy into like for your children or for your family and kind of instill that view?

[09:17] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: I don't think I do it on purpose, but I think it is there because I think part of it, we come, I come, even if I'm a second 3rd generation maybe palestinian after 1948, but you still live in an uncertainty, so you always have that. I think that is part of me, and I think I've always told you guys, no, it's not a choice. You're not going to go to college, or that is something you're going to do. Now, what you want to do with it, it's up to you. But you will go and finish. And at this time, even a bachelor's is not enough. You need to make sure you go into higher education and then whatever you want to do. So, you know, moving to the states, there's a lot of different thoughts because there's more freedom of choices, not in the political sense, but more of a security sense where people can actually choose something that are not traditional or are not fully secured because they feel secure in their own country. But it's very hard for me to. In theory, I believe in it, and I say, hope one day that's something I can implement, but in practice for my kids. And you hear it all the time. I always tell you guys, it's okay, you finish. You do your higher education, you finish. And I don't care what you do with your degree. You know, you do whatever you want, whatever you're passionate on, but it's not. If you all of a sudden want to become an artist, go for it. But you finish university and then you go and do those paths, because now you have a secure thing in your pocket and you can fall back into if life takes you in a different direction. And I think that thought comes from there. It comes from seeing my grandmother and seeing my uncles and how my father and stuff. And being a Palestinian myself with no real homeland, you know, it's all borrowed homelands. Whether, you know, you become a Jordanian and it's been a blessing, or you become an American is another blessing. But then you're always missing where you come from originally, somewhere where you belong.

[11:27] JUMANA IBRAHIM: In terms of, like, visiting, full of scene and everything. I know that whenever we go, we go to, like, dad's side of the family's, like, area. We go visit that side, because I know that, like, Yaffa has changed a lot in the time. But is there any time that you wish we would spend more time exploring, kind of like your family side of Holostine and going down that route? Instead of almost every time we go, we just go to dad's family.

[11:54] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Well, in reality, there's not much. Most of my family is outside Palestine. I have a cousin there, and I think it would be nice for us to connect with them, but that's all I have as family left there. But I do would like to be able to go and show you more where we came from. And I think Qais, when he was younger, he was once, maybe we'll do it again. It doesn't look like when it was when my grandparents and my father. Now, I was never. I never lived there, so you have to remember I was born after, but it would be nice to go and actually maybe walk the path and imagine what could be there. I know that my family home and my grandparents home and everything is. I don't know. I think it's still there. At least it was still there, my father said, till the early nineties. I don't know if they tore it down now. So, yeah, I think it would be nice for you to reconnect with both sides because we're a little bit different. As much as we are the same, we're all Palestinians, but my side comes from the coast, and your dad's side is from the mountains. And like any other country in the world, mountain people are different than, you know, the coastline. So it's nice to see both, I think. Yes, I think it would be nice, but there's no people to spend time with. It would be more exploring and finding.

[13:18] JUMANA IBRAHIM: And then I guess along the lines of just family in general and growing up, how was with, like, being the oldest sibling and, like, your relationship with your siblings and especially when you were alone for a couple years, like, just with your grandmother, when your family still lived in Spain?

[13:36] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Well, we were too young, I think things worked out fine. Khaled came the next year, and then my parents decided to come. I don't remember much what Tim and I were there at my grandma. I don't have much memories of both of us together in that house for some reason, but I don't remember any problems adjusting as we were growing up. It was funny, we had two camps at some stage. It was Rula, my youngest sister, and my brother, who's the middle, and I was on my own. So they were a team. Not on purpose, but they got along very well. And I was most of that time on my own until, I would say, college. And then in college, Khaled and I became closer, and Rilla became more. Nobody's on their own, but, you know, it's more like you understand each other more and stuff like that. So, yeah, we went through two stages, I think, and Khalid was the middle because, you know, he's the middle child, so he's closer to both. So, yeah, so now I'm closer to my brother, who's the middle child. Not closer, but I'm close to him. And him and Rilla are close, but we understand each other better. I don't know. We had crazy moments and things I will not share.

[14:52] JUMANA IBRAHIM: Why not?

[14:53] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Because. I don't know. Some of them are nice, some of them are crazy. Some of them we should not have done.

[14:59] JUMANA IBRAHIM: But do you have a story that you will share?

[15:04] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: I don't know. What did we used to do, Khaled and I? For a while, and this is ridiculous, but when my parents used to go out, I think. I don't know how old we were. We were maybe ten or nine. I don't know why we used to do this, but when they go out at night, we would go set up. I don't know, we'd set up something. It's like a full dinner without food. And we'll put water as if it's a drink, not alcohol drink, but just a fun drink. And we said, we'll use my mom's old, very beautiful glasses. We'll take them out of the place and use them and put them set up, and then we bring everything back in. I don't know why we used to do that. It sounds really silly right now, but it was something we did many times.

[15:53] JUMANA IBRAHIM: Honey, do you have kind of like a favorite, kind of like, bonding memory almost of like, the three of you altogether? Something that you think about or reflect on a lot?

[16:06] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: The three of us? No, I can't remember something. The three of us, there's always here or there. But I do remember my brother, some of the memories. My brother, he was a little bit of a daredevil at some point. He's very much like, very much like him, by the way. So he had his bike, and a friend of my dad's dared him to go up behind us. They were doing a new house constructing, and it was all, you know, the very small stones they use for construction. And it was huge, the hill that was created by it. So for some reason, the conversation took where? Hey, Khalid, on your bike, I don't think you can go up this whole thing. And of course, Khalid said yes. And he bet him five jds at the time, which was like maybe seven, $8. I think he was ten. So he did. He went up, he made it on his bike, and then he went down and he flipped all the way from the top to bottom, and he got all cut up. And he was in the hospital for two days after that. But all the whole time he was going, I have my $7, I made it. So, no, I don't remember anything specific the three of us right now, but there are many little memories here and there.

[17:26] JUMANA IBRAHIM: And then now all three of you live in different countries and kind of are separated, but how do you keep in contact and how do you make an effort to kind of just stay connected with your family even though you live far away? Farther away?

[17:40] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: It's not easy because you remember life takes time, routine. And then all of a sudden a week passes by and I'm not someone who sits on the phone every day by habit. Some people, it's part of they have that they sit, they know this hour they're doing this. I don't. So that's not good or bad. I don't know. It's just how it is. So we talk once a week, maybe sometimes every two weeks. You just have to keep trying. You pick up the phone and call. Or these days with these whatsapps, you send a little, you share something that's happened here or there. You just have to keep trying. It's very hard. But if you have a good relationship with your siblings, it doesn't matter how far you haven't talked to them. And then when you come together, it's all the same. But, you know, when you were younger, I'm sure you remember we used to go a lot to amman all the time, every summer. And we used to organize it together to make sure that you all meet all the cousins together. And if you remember all that, so that we put all three, put a lot of effort into that. And although not all three of us were always there at the same time because, you know, Khaled is in Dubai and his work, or we had to leave in August when everybody still had summertime, it's very different. But you just have to keep trying, mom. You have to. Whether it's phone calls, a little message, a joke. You know, sometimes if you notice, life took your uncles and your cousins here to the states to study. You know, being there when they have a graduation, go help them and meet with them. That's all. It brings people together. The more you connect through anything, you create a relationship. So, yeah, but it's not easy. And it's sad because although we're close, there's a lot of the daily that you miss that you don't have to put all this effort. It becomes like a daily thing. And that is the problem. When you have families who are everywhere, you do tend to have to put extra time in something that could come naturally when you're living in the same city. So, yeah, it's just an effort you have to do.

[19:52] JUMANA IBRAHIM: And then with moving to the states, you kind of became more ingrained into, like, dad's family because his family basically all lives here. So how was that adapting to this new family, especially while being far away from your own?

[20:05] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Well, I have two uncles who were here when I came, which was nice, but my cousins on my uncle, so they're way younger than me. So it was, you know, it's nice to have a relationship, but not a strong relationship because they were at a different stage of their lives. But, yeah, when it's not only your dad's family, I actually became part of his whole side, his friends, friends from college, everything. Basically, I took over, you know, got, what do you call it. I became part of everything about him. He didn't change much. I had to change everything. But it's a choice I made. Look, it's not. It wasn't hard, but it wasn't easy because our families are a little bit different. You know, your dad's family is more conservative and more village oriented. We are more, you know, I was raised in the city. Maybe if we never left Palestine, we'd be in the same boat, but that's circumstances. So we were raised in a city, so there's a little bit of different things. Also, your family on your dad's side, when they came to the states, they came in time frozen. That's something that happens to many people from different cultures. Whatever you bring with you, traditions of the time, when you come to another country, those are the traditions you're stuck with because you don't want to let go. But back home, things have evolved and changed because, like anywhere else, but because you so want to hold on to your traditions and you don't want to lose them. You know, certain things that I found they do. I'm like, who does that right now? It's over. You know, we're in 1997. This doesn't, we're not 2040 years, 100 years back. But for them, they are basic because that's something they're holding onto because that's what they know. And many of the people who came at the time never went back. Like now, you guys, we go every summer or every people are going. It's much easier at the time. They didn't go. 20 years, they didn't go. So whatever they have with them in that little suitcase, they're holding onto it inside of them. So it was hard to adapt to that. But at the same time, I learned a lot. Like, it's not like, oh, we are like this. I'm not going to do this. On the contrary. Your dad's family has some habits that I think are priceless. They're very, very close and they protect each other very well, and they find each other. So if somebody has an issue, you'll find the whole family flying from one city to city to be there for them. And that is very, very precious. Although my family, we are close, and my aunts and uncles are all over the world, and even Europe, when somebody had a wedding, maybe one of us will go to represent, but not everybody goes. It's just, no, it's another country. You're not going to go do that here with your dad's family. Everybody goes. You've seen it. Everybody makes the effort, whether they drive or they fly, it doesn't matter. Finances are not an issue. Everybody will go. They'll make it to work and they feel that is something they must do. For me, it was too much. I'm like, how many weddings can you go to and how many picnics do you have to be at? That's so impractical. But with the years I started seeing it, there's a value to it. So that was good. That was something I learned a lot to understand that value. We were too practical in my family, a little bit too practical sometimes. And you lose things when you're that practical. You lose little touches that are very important. So, yeah, it wasn't great easy. But the good thing was, I think that's a good thing is we did not live in Florida, where the whole family was. So really we lived on our own terms here in Atlanta, and we would visit and enjoy people. I think if we lived in Florida, it would have been a problem because definitely everybody's together all the time, so that would have been too much. So I think that's how it worked because we were not there in the midst of it, so we could pick and choose the times that everybody's together. But, yeah, but even if you have different cultures, there's value in both. You should not, across the board, just scratch one versus the other.

[24:23] JUMANA IBRAHIM: Do you have any kind of rituals or traditions that you brought with you into, like, dad's family or implemented just into, like, our immediate family?

[24:33] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Well, I think just by your dad marrying me, he brought a new path because in his family, they, they people. It's a huge, it's a huge clan. It's a huge family. So there still is the idea of, you know, distant cousins will get married to each other or something like that. So having someone marry someone from a totally different, not even outside the village, it's actually outside from, not in Palestine, but in another country was a big deal, very big deal that he married someone and they called me a stranger, but he set the path for his cousins. He opened the door, they're like, we can do that. So people were then Amo Hamis, he got married from someone from another village, somebody else from another city. So it started. They're still very close. They prefer to marry from their own village. But the whole concept started becoming new. So, yeah, so I think that's something that went in to, and I guess they got to know me. They figured, I'm not that bad, you know. So everybody was very nice traditions to change families. No, you cannot change your dad's family. They are very rooted in their own, and that is very nice. But yes, of course we have our own. Between your dad and me, we brought something together and we did our own little, you know, package. So, yes, of course, we all bring what we all bring with us how we were raised. The minute you have kids, all of a sudden you remember things come to you, and you want your children to experience what you experienced in your own families. And that's why, you know, you start having to find a balance. Do we raise them like this or like that? If there's a huge difference. But, yeah, I think I did. I'm sure I did.

[26:28] JUMANA IBRAHIM: Do you have kind of a favorite thing that you and dad did for us when we were kids that maybe reminded you of your childhood or kind of stemmed from your own memories?

[26:37] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Oh, I think what we do comes from my side. We used to do a lot of games, and for the holidays, we used to do some fun stuff. So having that whole tradition of you guys having your treasure hunt to look for your gifts, and we did it until now. You're in your twenties. We still try to do a version of it. I think that came from things we did in our family. Playing board game obsession, that's from my family having all these things that we do together like this. That's mostly us. So, yeah, of course. And your father suffers through that. He doesn't like all of them.

[27:27] JUMANA IBRAHIM: What about any kind of new things? Do you think that maybe just from you guys being together and being from two separate areas have combined into this new tradition or path or event?

[27:39] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Honestly, maybe mostly everything. Not everything, but 80% could be new because you can't do one side versus the other. There are things that I do here that my parents look at me and go, what are you doing? Because we never did this. Little things, they're all small things. There's nothing major, but, you know, things like how I spoke to you in Arabic when you're younger. And I see certain expressions and they're like, who says that anymore? You know? But I use them because they're very classical Arabic. And I want to make sure that you remember because of it. And that brings us back to the idea. When you leave, you're holding on so tighten to certain things. So you go back to things in your culture or your language because you don't want to let go. So you start going back into memory and using things that maybe you take for granted when you're in your own home and your own country. So, yeah, things like that. You know, when we go belaid to the mosque, masalan, that's something we never did. We never went to the mosque. You know, my dad used to go, but we don't go. You know, you pray at home. It's just not something we did here. We all go as a family. We do this as a tradition. That's a tradition we never had. And in the beginning, your grandparents were like, really? That's pretty cool. You guys are. You're going to not because of not going to pray. It's the idea to go to the mosque. We just never did it as a family. So that's some of the stuff. Having 50 people just for a nice dinner. Hey, come have Grabenna something to eat. And it's 50 people. Yeah, we never had that. Because your dad's family is so huge. Yeah.

[29:20] JUMANA IBRAHIM: Then do you think because you're in a completely different country, these traditions and stuff had to adapt to this new environment? And so that's why maybe it's a little different. Why, like your parents would be like, why are you doing it like that?

[29:32] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Because you had to adapt it, definitely, mom, you come up with your own, you have to be able to, you can't be rigid on any way, you know? And I think that you, you guys being raised is very different than how your dad was raised here. Like, your dad is third generation, but he was raised, and I was never in the states. So I'm coming. I'm, you know, I'm. What do you call it? Off the boat? Fresh off the boat? Fresh off the boat. Something like that. That's me. So I'm bringing with me fully arabic traditions of a certain time, a certain part of the society. But your dad was raised here by parents who were very terrified to let go of traditions. So he was raised in a very strict environment to a point where it's backfired at some point. But with you guys, we decided, both of us, because he knew, because he went through it here, I didn't. He wanted his children to be a little bit more balanced. Like, he was never allowed to have friends outside the family. Okay. It was not a choice. Yeah. Your friends are at school. They don't come to the house. Your friends are your cousins. But when he went to college, you know, he ended up experimenting. Things that maybe if he had friends before, he would have been able to judge things and practice. But. So for me, I saw. I admired your dad, how he was able to maneuver two cultures, you know, an american culture fully and an american arab culture. And he made his presence, and he was able. He was very strong that way, and I wanted you guys to be that way. So we agreed that we will find a balance. We will not be too much on one side, too much on the other. Sometimes it was good, but sometimes, you know, you wish for more connection. So there's not a perfect way. There's no manual. You really can't tell what's going to happen. But we're very happy with how you grew up and, you know, but we always pray that you stay connected, you don't lose yourself, because it's important.

[31:38] JUMANA IBRAHIM: I think that's all my questions.

[31:41] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: Okay.

[31:43] JUMANA IBRAHIM: Do you have any questions for your daughter?

[31:47] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: What is it you would wish? You would wish right now? I'm sure you have something that you think maybe we could do differently for you. When we raised you guys, like, having this whole balance of being an Arab in the United States. So an Arab american with two cultures and finding yourself, what is it now that you're in twenties, I wouldn't ask you this in your 15, because your answer would be just based on, I don't like this. But now you're an adult. How. What is it you think that where do you think we maybe have made a mistake? Then we could have done it differently? Or what do you think you. Or, let me rephrase. What do you think that you thought was a mistake? And now as you are 20, you see the value of it? I think this is a better one.

[32:31] JUMANA IBRAHIM: I think that the balance itself, you have to be able to navigate it as an individual, you know, of being. Of navigating both cultures and being raised in both cultures, because, like, growing up in America, going to school in America, like, I had friends who were not arab. Primarily, all my friends were not arab. So that was like a whole separate world. And it wasn't difficult. But then I like going home. It's kind of a complete, a different, a different atmosphere. And then I think it's something that I noticed a lot more in college because I go to a school with a very large arab population. And so then trying to make those arab friends outside of my family, for example, because, like, all my cousins were primarily my only arab friends. It was very strange in terms of, like, they all grew up in a very arab community, like they, in the friends I have in college, like, grew up in Dearborn, which is essentially a pocket of, like, the arab world in the United States. So they had this very different experience. And so sometimes it'd be like, oh, I feel like, too, too whitewashed for, like, these, the arab kids and then, like, too arab for the white kids. And so, but I think that's more of on an individual level in terms of, like, how I managed those both sides. Because at the end of the day, like, if I'm going to school, then, like, my parents aren't there to be like, oh, you should do this or that. Like, you have to navigate your day at school and the people you're going to be friends with and that kind of thing.

[34:06] MOUNA ABDELHAMID: So is there something you still think was done wrong? Like something you're holding on say, this is definitely, even now at this age, I think this should have been done different.

[34:17] JUMANA IBRAHIM: I don't think of anything specific or anything general. Like, I don't really think of anything that was done wrong in that way. I mean, maybe there were little things that could be changed, but, like, nothing that I think of off the top of my head because there are a lot of things that I'm very happy about. Like, I'm very happy about the fact that I am connected to my culture and we do get to travel back to, like, our men and stuff, stuff very often. And that, like, I do speak out of me and I'm very happy about those things and I like them. And I also feel like I have found a group of friends outside of the arab community who still appreciate that about me. So it doesn't feel like, oh, I have to hide this or I have to be different. Like, I think that has been a very helpful thing in terms of the friends that I have gained over the course of my life. So I don't have to feel any different and can do both sides.