Paige Lyons and Herb Albert

00:01 Hello. My name is Herb Albert. I'm 70 years old, and I live in Madison Heights, Virginia. Today's date is December 8, and my conversation partner's name is Paige.

00:13 Hi, my name is Paige. I am 28 years old, and I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. Today's date is December 8, and my conversation partner's name is Herb So the first question I want to ask both of you is, how did you find out about one small step, and why did you sign up to participate in a conversation? I found out about it in the bathroom of the student health center on campus. I've been a longtime listener of StoryCorps, and I was kind of in this, like, point in the semester where things had gotten a little boring, and I wanted. I was trying to find, like, new experiences to make life more exciting. So that's when I think I submitted an application on the elevator down from my doctor's appointment.

01:13 So is this where I answer? I found out. I. I guess. I'm also a longtime StoryCorps listener and always enjoyed those conversations. It's just very. So inspirational, informational, and just a reminder that we can have differences, but we can still communicate through those differences. And I actually signed up on Storycorps to be a participant and never heard back. And then I think I was reading through one of the UVA newsletters or something about the school doing something like this, and. And so I kind of signed up the same way and got a pretty quick response, and here we are.

01:57 So, yeah, well, I'm so glad, and thank you for sharing how you found out, because I think that's especially interesting for us to know where people are hearing about the program. So my last question before I'm going to kind of leave it to both of you, is to ask you both to take a moment to read out what your partner wrote, and you could read it out in the exact way that it's written, even if it's in the first person. And once you've read out your partner's bio, if you have any immediate question that comes to mind based off of what they've written, you're welcome to ask it. And then you can kind of move into those formative. Formative invoices. So, Paige, you can read herbs first, and then herb read pages, and then any immediate questions can go after that. Gotcha. Born and raised in New York City, currently living in Virginia. Married for 46 years with two adult children and five grandchildren. 25 year recipient of a liver transplant. Retired and ordained minister. Love life and people, regardless of views try to see the best in people at all times.

03:01 Hi, I'm Paige. I think my largest life struggle has been managing chronic pain. My thoughts bounce around a lot, and I'm easily annoyed by someone who dominates group conversations. I'm absolutely head over heels in love with my dog, Fran. Not short for Francis, just Fran. I think we should rethink our systems and invest less in the law and more in people. I have a comment, not necessarily a question page, but I love your thought, or the last sentence, that speaks about rethinking systems and investing less in the law and more in people. And I think that's admirable, and I think that's definitely something that I agree with. I think we have gotten kind of out of hand with laws and rights and who kind of controls those directions of things that we govern ourselves with. And we've lost the idea that people are what we're talking about. And I think we've lost trying to manage people. We're losing people. So I think. I absolutely agree with that.

04:27 Yeah, I think the. I feel like our questions shouldn't be so much about, like, what we don't allow then, like, how do we get people? What? Like, we want everyone to be doing what they want to be doing, not kind of trying to control. I guess.

04:47 I think there's a fine line. There's a balance that we lose sometimes in what's right and what's wrong. Because I believe that even though it may be right for me to do something, say something, is it always the best way? Does it always get the best result? Is it always respectful of the other person? Because even though it's right for me, it's not illegal. But if it's offensive to you, shouldn't I be taught or learned to consider the effect that it has on you? And I think we've lost some of that common respect for one another, and we just only focus on what my rights are. And if I have a right to do this, then you have to allow it. Well, okay, I may have to allow it, but I don't have to like it. And I just want you to hear what it's doing to me sometimes. And I think we lose that in the translation of things. So. Yeah, and I think the other question that I. Well, thought that because you posted it in your short bio that you have a large life struggle with chronic pain and not to be too intrusive, but would that be something that you'd be willing to share and talk about or.

06:08 Yeah, I mean, it's gotten better in the past few years was problems with my hip in 2015, and it's just been. I don't know how many physical therapists I've seen, but I got surgery on it last fall, and it's helped, but not 100%. And I really want to be at 100% where I can run around and play sports and stuff. Right now, I'm still, like, very nervous doing that.

06:45 Okay. Yeah, I guess I'm always interested in concern. Being a transplant recipient and having had some complications with that and struggles with that, I've learned a lot through those things. In fact, I say sometimes that that whole medical journey that I was on actually was the best thing that ever happened to me.

07:10 Wow.

07:11 Yeah. Why is that, in retrospect? Because it taught me so much about what I had taken for granted. Finding out that I had liver disease, finding out that I needed a transplant. Two years of back and forth, back and forth, and getting sicker and sicker and sicker, actually, to the point where I passed my window of opportunity to receive a transplant, but managed to get one. It's a long story, and I'll share it with you at another time or after this. Long story short, I had to struggle through and find ways and find how to manage that when I was literally facing death. But it taught me so much about being grateful for what I did have. It taught me how to trust, how to lean into my faith as a Christian, how to trust God for that, and how there were people in my life that supported me. And seeing, too, how I navigated through that actually helped other people. And I never would have known that or even thought that through my suffering, others could benefit. And so there's always another side to our struggle that can be beneficial. It taught me to be stronger. It taught me to be stronger in my faith, and it taught me to appreciate the things that I did have. So when people talk about physical struggles and pain and illnesses and things of that nature, I'm always interested to hear their story because I think there's something to be shared and learned from it.

08:58 Yeah. I will say I have grown in a way that I didn't know I was lacking. Like, I didn't realize what I was taking for granted before. And then also, I kind of gotten better at letting things go, because on bad days, you either let them go or you have a really bad day. And that's. Those are your two options at that moment.

09:25 You know what I say? Every day is a good day. Bad stuff happens. We meet bad people, but it's still a good day and find a reason to make it a good day to capitalize on what is good. You know, we're still living, we're still breathing, we still have our family, we still have things that if we allow the bad incident to take center stage and it dominates the rest of the day, and then we've squandered the rest of that day where we could have rejoiced in something, you know, even just for a little bit. So, yeah, cool.

10:02 Let's see here. Who has been the most influential person in your life? What did they teach you?

10:14 I would say the most influential person in my life was my grandfather. When I lived in New York City, we traveled here to Virginia to work on grandparents farm. They were farmers. They had 250 acres of farmland, and they farmed for everything. Watching my grandfather grow up, I thought he was the pinnacle of what good looked like. If you asked me what God looked like or who Jesus looked like, I would always point to him because I never saw him do any wrong. So what he taught me was, through his lifestyle, was to be good, to do good, to give good. And, I mean, I just. Everything I saw in him was good. Even when he disciplined us as kids, he did it in such a way that you knew that he loved you. And it wasn't that he was. He didn't make us feel like bad kids. I think we always knew that we did something wrong, but it wasn't that he didn't love us. And I thought, I wanted to be a farmer when I grew up. I admired him so much. And what I realized much later in life is I didn't want to be a farmer, but I wanted to be like him. I was looking at his character, I was looking at his faith, and that's who I wanted to be like. So that he was, I would say, the most influential person in my life.

11:36 Did you ever learn things later in your life from your parents that were, you know, kind of brought him down to a more human and flawed level?

11:52 Not a lot, okay? Because a lot of, like, talking to my mom and even my aunts and uncles, they saw him the same way. He was always kind, he was always forgiving. He was always the bigger person. And it was just almost a supernatural quality that he had. You know, he was just able to look beyond the meanness and just give love, just continue to give love. And, I mean, it's just, it was so unique to see that. I mean, it really stood out. It really did. So I know that he's not supernatural. He's got a supernatural spirit living in him that guides him. But. But that's kind of. What about you? What was.

12:45 This is a tough question. The most influential person in my life, I'd have to say. I'm like best friends with one of my sisters, and she. We were talking on the phone the other day. We were trying to. We just talk about nothing for hours sometimes. And we were talking about, like, if we had a fight, what would it be about? And we couldn't even think of anything. And I think it was just kind of like one of those, I was like, Kendall always supports me and is just so steady for me. And, yeah, she's just been there for me in an amazing way.

13:32 That's great. Couldn't even think of what you would fight about.

13:36 Yeah.

13:39 You guys ought to try it and see, you know? So that speaks to something in the relationship, you know, when I think about that, there have to be differences. There have to be things where you don't disagree on. And so there has to be something in that relationship where you guys manage that, that it doesn't come to a fight.

14:02 Yeah. I'm trying to think like we're different people. So why doesn't it? I don't know. Yeah, I guess. What do we do? I think we just understand each other really well. Maybe that's it.

14:17 Okay.

14:18 If that's enough.

14:20 And that's not always easy to find in two people, whether you're a blood related or not. Because I think there are times when we all have disagreements and we want to be right. We don't, you know, it's that whole thing of we ask, we always want to be right. We don't want to understand the other person's perspective. But I think that may also speak to not speaking for you. But I think the reason why you're here today and the reason why I'm here because we do want to understand other people. I think we share that in our kind of opening statement about why did we choose to participate in this. I think I enjoy talking to people. I don't enjoy, I don't always enjoy difficult conversations. I enjoy what I get out of them, because I think it's when you, when you have to kind of push through the differences to find what you have in common, you find that those differences don't make up the entire person. Those are just differences. Those are thought patterns. Those are belief systems. Those are what we grew up with and what we're still navigating through. But I think it says a lot about people who are willing to go through that kind of struggle to get better understanding out of it, because, first of all, it says that we don't know everything, and so we're willing to say, okay, teach me, show me, help me understand, because my goal is to make the world that I live in and the world around me better right now as well as down the road. And I think it comes with understanding and give and take a, not only is compromise, but understanding. I don't have to agree with everything, and I don't have to come alongside of everything that I disagree with. But is it okay if it's okay for you and it's not harmful, it's not hurting, then who am I to say that you can't, you know, believe something or act a certain way or subscribe to a belief system or something? Okay, well, that's good. So what was your earliest memory of politics? What kind of introduced you with your idea of politics?

16:56 I think the first one I can remember was driving down the street with my mom in our hometown, and I was in the backseat, and we heard on the radio about Clinton being impeached.

17:11 Okay.

17:11 And I I remember her answer not being satisfying. And, of course, I was like, how old? I was maybe five. So of course it couldn't be satisfying. But I just kind of. Yeah, I guess that was it. And then I kind of grew up just knowing there was a Democrats and Republicans and that we were Democrats, but it felt more like. Like a favorite color. Like, not so consequential. Like, it was just like, oh, they like blue, they like green, whatever. Yeah.

17:51 And I think years ago, it kind of was like that. I don't think it was as controversial. I don't think it was as divided and, you know, distant and very polarized. I don't think it was, was that. I think, you know, I remember John F. Kennedy actually came to my neighborhood in New York at one of his rallies, and it was such a big thing, and I didn't think it was a big thing. It was. Who is this guy? I'm a young kid, and my mom said, you need to go over and listen and see him. And I'm like, okay. And so I did. You know, it was a few blocks from where I was living, and they had this big platform and everything, and he was there, and he was talking. I had no clue what he was talking about. And so I knew that he was influential. I knew he was important, and he was kind of running to be the president of the United States. And I thought, wow, the president of the United States here so that was my kind of president of the United States, you know, and then when Martin Luther King was assassinated, I think I was twelve or 13 at the time, and it was just. It was so eerie because I had no real idea of the impact that he had on so many people on so many levels. But that day, it began. The heaviness began to kind of rain down and push down on me, to make me understand that this person was more influential, more important and bigger than I realized. And so, of course, with the whole civil rights movement and everything going on, politics was very confusing for me. As a young black boy growing up in New York City, already a melting pot of different people's races and ethnic groups and cultures, it was very confusing. And I grew up with the brunt of a lot of that, of not being able to go to certain stores, not being allowed in certain arenas. And so I just always felt that it was unfair, but there was nobody doing anything about it. So my belief in politics became it was very negative. It seemed to be one sided, didn't seem to be. Didn't seem to appear to be a system that was working for me or would work for me. And so, you know, for a long time, I kind of struggled with that whole idea of politics and, you know, not being for me. So I didn't really believe in it, that it was something to be believed in. So, yeah.

20:42 So neither party really felt like back then, neither party felt like it helped black people more than the other?

20:52 No, I think that even then, the democratic system was always more in favor of helping. One of the things I guess that I understood later was that while that may have been true, but I didn't see anyone in the system that looked like me. So who were my role models? Who could I trust and believe when everywhere we were going as kids, we were told, don't do this, don't do that. We had certain rules that were different. And so, you know, I didn't have a lot of confidence in even. And, you know, you grow up believing what your parents are telling you, that this is who we believe, this is who we trust, or this is what we do. And once that's ingrained in you, it's kind of there until you kind of. And if when you're of age to think on your own and for yourself, that you're even willing to step outside of whatever you were raised with. So, yeah, kind of, you know, interesting, I guess.

22:04 Did you ever, like, make a mistake? Like, enter a place where you weren't allowed? What was that like?

22:11 Look, we not only accidentally did that, but I think we tried the system sometimes, and I guess some of our behavior was rebellious, and some of it was just trying the system to see if we could get away with it. Taunting and just, I guess that kind of rebellious. You can't make me. We're going to do it anyway.

22:43 I didn't mean mistake. That word came out, and now I regret it. I didn't mean, did you make a mistake? I guess.

22:50 Well, it could have been a mistake.

22:51 Yeah.

22:52 No, I think that that's not far off the mark. I think it could have been, you know, of entering or speaking up even when you weren't supposed to speak up. You know, it was kind of like, you'll speak when you're spoken to, if you're spoken to. Meanwhile, you just be quiet and you wait, you know, we'll get to you when we get to you, kind of thing. If I blurted out, you know, because I was here first, well, that didn't matter, you know? So I think, you know, that kind of puts, and that's where your civil rights movement comes from. It comes from, no, I'm not gonna be silent. No, I'm not gonna. You know, if you're saying that we are all created equal and that we should have these rights, then you have to honor that. And so when I look back at history and I look at where we are today, it's because people chose to step out of line and says, I'm not going to sit down and be quiet anymore. And I see that in all realms of our lives, there had to be somebody to advocate who was willing to take the first shot to put themselves in harm's way for the benefit of those coming behind them. So I think if we're not in some way willing to do that, then we have to examine ourselves and ask, then what are we doing to help society? Are we part of the problem? Or do we just silently allow what we don't agree with to continue?

24:27 Did you ever have to deliberately unlearn, unlearn those lessons of racism for yourself?

24:43 I think there's an ongoing process of unlearning what's not healthy or how I respond to them or how I frame them with my perspective. Because in order for me to move forward, I can't just look at what I don't like. I can't just dismiss or continue to be angry and upset about what's upsetting to me, what was done to me. I think the way that you overcome racism, hatred, those types of things, is not always by fighting it, but by sometimes just sharing what it should look like. Be the example, be the bigger person, be the forgiving person. Be the person who is long suffering, is willing to tolerate, to show that, you know, I'm willing to get along with you, I'm willing to befriend you. I'm willing to share with you. I'm willing to share this space with you. And I think there are times when that works and there are times when it doesn't work. I'm not. And I think they're different. It's different for each individual. You have to choose what youre. What your path is going to be. In our struggle of life and getting along, there are going to be some who are louder, more open, and maybe even angry and violent or nonviolent. But then there are some who will take a more peaceful path to the same end. And I think we have to each choose that where we're best suited and purposed for. But I think it's a constant. There's an ongoing sense of, so how do I see the positive? How do I fix it rather than just beating dead the horse that, you know has done something wrong? I can be angry for the rest of my life, but that's not necessarily gonna help. It just means I die an angry person. But what steps can I take to do something about it?

27:13 So, in this quick pause, I think you've already started talking about some of these belief systems and experiences. We do tend to spend a large chunk of time talking about ideology and the values that have been a big part of your life. There's a first question under that belief, like the ideology section, which I'd love for you to ask each other, but also, I know it says political in there, but you can broaden it to include other belief systems beyond just politics, because I would love to dive into some of those themes more. Okay. Could you briefly describe, in your own words, your personal beliefs and your personal political beliefs?

28:15 I'd say that I would love to be able to trust or subscribe to kind of a more definitive political system, but I think we're flawed in our political system, period. And so I think looking at, you know, the two extremes that exist and the narrow margin of being independent, I think there's a lot to be learned from both. And I have a hard time believing in a system that's flawed and broken. I think sort of what you said about rethinking our systems is kind of more of where I am. And I would say that I'm less political and more spiritual because I believe as a Christian, I believe that the Bible describes how to best get along, how to best navigate in a fallen world which we're in. And I think we just continue to move further and further away from those mandates, christian mandates, spiritual and religious mandates that were established by God for his people. And so I would say I would, my belief would be much stronger in the spiritual and religious. I try to follow those things in practice, put into practice those things, because I think that we are in the eyesight of God. We are all precious and all important. We were all created with purpose and for purpose. And I think the way we live out that is to help one another do that, to meet people where they are as different as they may be, color, race, hair, beliefs, whatever. But they're still important and they're still necessary, no less than, but actually going a step above and esteeming them more important than myself because I've learned that people have so much more to offer than we see when we first meet. There's so much more to an individual. I mean, what we see is the tip of the iceberg. And in the first few minutes, we may assume that we know or have a good idea of who they are, what they're about and what's going on in their brain, but we really don't have a clue. And until we give ourselves the opportunity to get to know people, I think that's when we realize we're more alike than we are different. So when it comes to personal beliefs, I believe what God says. I believe what the Bible says. And that's the way I carry myself, and that's the way I'm going to continue to carry myself. And I'm okay with that. And I know that religion is becoming less and less like we think it ought to be or like it used to be. I think people are struggling to find a normalcy to professing, believing, promoting and living out what they believe about religion, about spirituality, because I think sometimes we are, we get stuck in these molds of what it's supposed to look like. It's supposed to be church on Sunday for an hour, church on Sunday. And then with your different denominations, that looks different, too. But we're living in a time of technology and we do things differently. We don't do things always face to face. We're texting and we're streaming and we're meeting on WhatsApp and other things, so we don't do the face to face. So people are looking to do religion differently. People are looking to do politics differently. And we're not always on the same age with their generational differences. I pride myself in being able to kind of keep up, and I want to keep up because in order for me to understand the difference between me and my 40 year old son, between me and my grandchildren, I've got to know where their brains are and what they're being fed and what their perspectives are. In order for me to understand, I don't have to like it. I don't have to always agree with it. But for me to understand it, I've got to know it. I've got to allow myself to say, no, it's not just wrong, wrong, wrong, but help me understand it. You know, what? What's in this video game that's got you fascinated for hours on end, and you throw a tantrum when it's, you know, time to shut it down? You know, I grew up with different. I had skates, and we were outside, and, you know, that was. We threw tantrums when it was time to come inside because of that. So there are fundamentally differences in that. What about you?

33:38 I think if I was in charge of the United States, first, I would try to get the money out of politics. I think that really skews things to, ugh, gosh, just not. It threatens democracy in a big, big way. Well, it makes you wonder if we had democracy almost. And then I think beyond that, that's the first step. The second step, I think, yeah, I think kind of like what we were talking about earlier, but, like, figuring out ways to. I think everyone wants to succeed. I think everyone wants to be good. And I think if we instead, we're not figuring out ways to not have bad behavior. If we figure out what drives people already and foster them to pursue that and support them to do that, then we don't even have to worry about things going wrong because they'll be so happy or driven or. I think everyone does have that in them. So I think reframing the questions that are asked shouldn't be so much about what's not allowed. But how can we get everyone going where they already want to go?

35:31 Do you think that one of the problems or challenges is money in politics or where the money comes from?

35:41 Both. I think it's. I think even so many of our politicians are already wealthy, and it says something when you don't. It's hard to talk about because I feel like I have a million ideas and they don't come out in sentences. But, um, I think who funds the elections really matters. Who is able to campaign really matters. I think campaigning almost takes too long, like, for anyone to have that amount of time already narrows down who we think can lead us. And then I also think, I say this, and I don't really follow local news too carefully, but I think we need to maybe not focus just on national policy, but the smaller stuff, you know, the people that you actually know in your town and kind of reconnect that way.

36:46 I think local politics is more important than global because your local elected officials are the ones who governed I, where you live, what you do in your neighborhoods, your community and your, and I think we get away from that because we don't hear about it. We're not taught that. We don't understand it. But I think that part of the, I think we've gotten so far off track and I don't know what the answer is. I don't, I dread what it's going to be like for my grandchildren, even for someone your age. I'm 70 years old, so I'm kind of like heading off into the sunset. And, you know, in some ways, I'm glad that I don't have a lot more years. Well, I don't know that. But, you know, I might be a Noah to have to deal with where we're headed. But I think I said earlier, you know, my, my goal, and I think our goal is, and it's similar to what you're saying, is to, to do what we can today to frame the question differently. How can I make my environment more welcoming so that there's space for both of us? That's kind of going to be a hard sell into the mindset and perspectives that we have. Because when I think about news outlets, when I think about politics, if it's not making a lot of noise, it's not making news. So what appeals to us is skewed. What we're listening for and what excites us and what's important to us is skewed. And I don't know how you unravel that. I don't know how you walk that back. It's definitely a process. It's going to, you know, when you have to work to unlearn something, undo something, whether it's a bad habit or it's a longer road back than it is, that seemed to get you where you are.

39:02 Right?

39:02 Because now you're fighting against the time. And so I don't know.

39:09 I have one follow up question for you, Paige, for the no herb you mentioned in that question about belief systems, that your faith plays a huge role in how you view the world and your approach to ideology. I mentioned before we started recording that, you know, faith in religiosity is oftentimes something that's different. And, Paige, I'm curious for you. Is that something important to you or is where do your kind of beliefs come from? Right. So, both my parents were christian, and we grew up going to church until, like, third grade. And I think I never really believed in it. I think an early memory I have is the story of Jesus Christ moving the boulder from his cave. And I was like, that boulder is too heavy. I know it's a trivial thing to get hung up on. It's very childish, because in the grand. The Bible has so many more mysteries to it. But I think I've had religious friends in the past. I think I have some disagreements with Christianity in the way it frames gender and kind of like the binary between good and evil, I think feels a little too clean cut for me. I think it's more messy. This must be hard for you as.

40:56 A no, but I'm not here to judge or to qualify what you believe or what your perspective is. It is what it is. You are where you are. You are where you choose to be. You believe what you believe. And I'm okay with it. You know, I'm not. I can't. I can't disregard what you believe. I don't have to agree with it.

41:35 Right.

41:36 When you. As a child, you said you. You had the vision of Jesus moving, removing the stone from his tomb, and you said, oh, that ain't happening. Right?

41:48 Yeah. Yeah.

41:48 How can you? Well, he's the same person that threw stars up in the air. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he didn't do that, either. So I think it really comes down to whether or not you do believe or not. And that's basically a choice that we have. We have a choice to believe or to not believe. And so, for me, if you're going to believe the beginning, then you are going to believe the middle and the end. You're going to believe everything in between and while. And it takes faith to do that, because at face value, when you look at it for the first time, you say with the knowledge that you have, the understanding that you have, that's not possible. Impossible. Can't happen. So it's a choice we make. You read the word for yourself. You read the Bible for yourself, you hear it for yourself, and you make a choice. And the choice that you choose has ramifications. It has. According to the Bible, it has consequences for those who don't believe. And so we each make that choice on our own for ourselves. And that's it. Now doesn't mean that because you don't believe, and I do, that you're any less than me. You're still, as I said before, you're still precious in the sight of God. So. And it's not my job to beat you over the head to try to convince you. You know, that's what the bad dictator and the bad parent does. You're going to do this whether you like it or not. Okay, well, what joy is there in that? What benefit is. Is it for you? The benefit is for the person who's trying to force you to do that. So there's no benefit for me. You know, I'll continue to share with you as long as you will allow. And when you're offended and I'm pushing you away, then that's time to maybe cut it off or just, you know, because I don't want to offend you. I don't want to push you away. If anything, I'm trying to open my arms up to say I'm welcoming you, to see what I believe and why I believe it, what it's done for me, what it's doing for me. I don't have a heaven to offer you. That's not what I can offer. I can just offer you what it's doing for me and what I see from my perspective. My faith in God is where I find my peace in this world. It helps me to manage, because I know that this world is not my home. I believe that I'm going to go to heaven when I die. That's what I look forward to. So I'm okay.

44:52 We've got about ten to 15 minutes left, and I know there's still quite a few questions left to explore. So within that, there's a few questions around, like misunderstanding and doubt. And I'm wondering if you can ask each other those and feel free to kind of modify based off of what you're curious about. And then I'll chime in again in another five to ten minutes to.

45:14 About misunderstanding with different beliefs and things. Yeah, exactly.

45:19 And feel, like I said, feel free to modify to fit what you'd like.

45:24 So, Paige, let me ask you, do you feel misunderstood then by, say, someone like me, with different religious beliefs than you?

45:44 Not you in particular. I don't really know how you understand me yet, because I know what you understand. I don't know what you understand of me. But I have in the past. Let's see. I guess I've only had close friends who are Christian, so that's the only religion I can really speak to. But in the past, I felt like. Like maybe by me not being religious, then I am lacking something to them and not necessarily have my own way of understanding that is equal. It's not just that I don't under. It's not just that I don't accept their God, but it's like, also that the way I see the world works has value, too. And I'm not sure that always comes across.

46:49 So do you think in those instances that you feel misunderstood by some of them.

47:06 Yeah, but it's happened so infrequently, I guess mostly because I am surrounded by people who are not religious.

47:15 Now.

47:18 I wonder if I can interject as well, like, feel free. If there are other bases on which you felt misinterpreted, you're welcome to explore those, too. I know I talked about the big two, I think, are ideology and faith. But if there are any other contexts in which you just personally feel misunderstood, that's fair game, too. There was one instance. So I have a neighbor up the street from me, and my dog used to play with his dog, and that was not a great relationship because I feel like he got. I feel like he kind of had a crush on me and, like, he got a lot out of getting me riled up and, like, emotional about my beliefs and stuff, and he would just keep his cool. And that relationship, I ended. I just, like, our dogs don't play together anymore. And I guess, like, he framed it as us, like, getting to understand each other better, but he would, like, try to stoke the fire and get a reaction out of me. And that was his goal. It wasn't really to understand me. So I felt really misunderstood. In that context.

48:48 Do you feel or how do you feel? Well, is there any impact because you're not a believer that you. I mean, how do you feel about that when you see other believers around you or even maybe in your family or.

49:19 So my undergraduate, I was at the University of Wisconsin. Wisconsin. And many of my peers were Christian, and I was very lonely at that point in time. So I was a little envious of the community they found in church. But it always. Not so much now, but at that point, it felt like a conspiracy to try to get me to join. Like, here's free food, come eat. And by the way, have you heard about God? And that made me less interested because it felt, I don't know, it was.

50:07 A trick to get you in.

50:08 Yeah. Yeah.

50:09 We're gonna feed you.

50:10 Yeah.

50:11 That's not why you're here.

50:12 Yeah, but I understand it came from. It didn't have to come from that angle, but that's how I was interpreting it. Yeah.

50:24 So how would you share, then, with someone, something that's important to you that they may not be interested in knowing more about on their own? If you had to invite them, what would be your way of getting. See what I'm saying?

50:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

50:44 I.

50:44 Like, if I was the church, what would my meal be? I think I'd go for. Well, this is on a one to one scale, but I think I would go for a walk with them to show them, because I think when people are walking, it's really nice to just, like, walk and not be in an enclosed space. You start to. You have a shared, common language of, like, the things you're passing by already that kind of feels you're like you're already experiencing something very similar. It's not like I'm visiting your space or you're visiting my space. It's we're walking together. And I guess other than that, I really like to get to know people, and this doesn't happen much as an adult, but, like, if you're sitting next to each other and doing a puzzle or doing something with your hands where you're kind of opening up a part of your brain to chitter chatter that normally wouldn't come, I really enjoy that.

51:57 I think that's one of the things churches kind of see. Food is that kind of that commonality, because when we eat, we tend to relax, let our guard down, and we talk about things that, you know, might be an opportune time to introduce something like religion. So I think that's why sometimes churches may use food or meals and things of that. So let me ask you this. Do you then, would you consider yourself a non believer?

52:25 Yes.

52:26 Okay. So as a non believer, do you ever feel when you're around other non believers anything in the way that they present themselves by not standing up and saying, I'm a nonbeliever. Do you see anything with people around you that, you know, kind of upset you when they're not being true to who they say they are? Have you experienced that?

52:51 I don't understand your question.

52:53 So as a non believer, you associate with other non believers. Were there any instances where they kind of didn't stand for what they believed in front of other people where they may have put on an error or made someone else to think that they were not a nonbeliever or that they were siding maybe with a christian.

53:18 Oh, I believe.

53:20 Yeah.

53:26 No. Could I? Maybe. There's a question that we asked, and I think it's kind of what you're getting at here, Herb, which is like, do you ever feel or do you ever have disagreements with people who are, who share your belief system, whether it's like party or faith, tradition or lack thereof? Yes, I guess. Well, I guess I need to step back. I guess I don't think of myself. And I'm like, oh, I'm a non believer. I do believe it's just not Christianity. What do I believe, though? I believe it's all like chaos. And then do I disagree with people? Yes. And I can't. Let me try to find the words to figure out what I see as the problem with people who I think share that kind of non religious view. I think, I think we are very quick to dismissed religion, especially like my family, especially as the far right has been radicalized and kind of used Christianity in that messaging. I think we can be very quick to dismiss religion, and it's just done phenomenal things for people. And I think there is a certain beauty that I think I have been able to find through long walks and meditation and spending time one on one with my dog. Like, there is a certain fullness that I suspect religious people can feel or feel just like knowing that God is there for them. That I think a lot of. I don't want to say my non believers, but people like me don't seek after. And I think it's kind of like the reason to live or it's one of those feelings that is beautiful. Okay, so we're coming towards the end. We've actually almost hit an hour. And I don't know if you felt it. I certainly have not. But being conscious of time, I do want to direct. I'm going to ask a couple of closing questions. Maybe we have a couple extra that I might bypass. But I have one question. You can actually read it out loud. It's the one about, you know, is there anything about moderate ways that you disagree with respect? And I think we'll combine that. And the most important thing, those are the two questions I would love to have. And maybe we've got another about three or four minutes. So I'll keep it kind of, kind of brief, but I hope that those make sense to close on. Herb, is there something about my beliefs that you don't agree with but still respect?

56:59 Yes, I don't. And I don't know if agree is the right word. I'm a Christian, and you're not. I see my whole answer to life wrapped up in what I believe through my faith. You don't. I, for lack of a better word, I don't agree with that, or I don't, don't want that for you. I would say maybe. I think that's clearly your decision. I respect that, because, as I said, you know, I'm not. I don't have any control over that. That's a decision that you make, and that's fine. So, yeah, I think that would be the way I would respond to that. If we flip that over, what about me?

58:02 Well, I suppose maybe the same. I don't agree that there's a, one kind of being or force that we all are in relation to. But it's worked for you, right? That's good. Okay. Okay. Is there anything you learned about me that surprised you?

58:39 I'm always pleasantly surprised with each new person I meet. Just learning the little things about people that, like you said, I mean, we're just now breaking the ice of who we are and just kind of scratching the surface. I mean, you're a whole you, a whole 28 years of life. And to. To understand that would take years of relationship and getting to know all of the intricacies of you. And so I'm always pleasantly surprised. Nothing today has shocked me or made me say, oh, my goodness. You never believe who I meant in either good or bad ways. So I think I'm always pleasantly surprised. And I enjoy meeting new people, learning just who they are, beginning that I can walk away with some satisfaction of having had a pleasant conversation with someone I had never met before. So, yeah, I'm pleasantly surprised.

59:49 Good. I think one thing that surprised it didn't surprise me, but I didn't expect to. Like, I don't like the civil rights movement happened before I was born, so we kind of, like, learned about it in textbooks and probably not. Well, certainly not enough. And I think it just, I don't know. It's really powerful to, like, hear you talk about how there were places you literally couldn't enter. Like, I've heard that, but I've never really. I've never had someone in my life who had to go through that. So thank you for sharing.

01:00:45 Well, thank you both.

01:00:46 And I think exactly to your last point, page, that's part of what we hope to do. The things that you hear about that don't necessarily listen firsthand, that we can create a space that's possible. So thank you both so much.

01:01:01 You're welcome.

01:01:01 Thank you.

01:01:02 Thank you, Paige.

01:01:03 Thank you, Herb