Shannon Sigamoni and Wilnisha Sutton

[00:04] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Hi, my name is Shannon Sigamoni 28 years old. Today's date is Tuesday, March 16, 2021. I'm recording from Washington D.C. with Wilnisha Sutton, who is my friend and colleague.

[00:17] WILNISHA SUTTON: Hello everyone. My name is Wilnisha Sutton. I am 33 years old. Today's date is Tuesday, March 16, 2021. I'm recording from Maryland and my name. Oh, sorry. With Shannon and she is my friend and colleague.

[00:35] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Awesome. So thank you for agreeing to sit down with me, Will Misha, and partnering with OTIP on this Voices of Freedom initiative. You know, I thought of you because the voices of survivor leaders like yourself are so important to have at the table, especially when we are discussing the 20 year anniversary of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act. So just to give a little bit of background as like a refresher, this initiative will really be preserving and capturing the stories of survivors, service providers, and really other professionals who have worked in the anti trafficking field to really discuss how the field has evolved over the past two decades, as well as what work still needs to be done. So thanks so much for joining me today.

[01:31] WILNISHA SUTTON: No problem. Thank you so much for inviting me. You always look out and I truly appreciate you and all your support.

[01:38] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Of course. So I thought we could get started by just kind of talking about how we know each other. I know you and I work together at an anti trafficking nonprofit in D.C. and I really enjoyed working with you. I remember. I still remember your interview. You were virtual because I think you were in California right at the time.

[02:01] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yep, I was in California.

[02:03] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah. And I still remember.

[02:04] WILNISHA SUTTON: I'm a California native.

[02:05] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, yeah. And I remember that was before Coronavirus. So doing virtual things was like kind of new.

[02:12] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes. We were hip.

[02:13] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah. And so I remember your interview. And I remember when we got off with you, I was like, we need to hire her. She's fabulous. And I remember when we first started, I was out of town, I think for the first couple of weeks. But when I finally met you, I was definitely impressed by your work, your drive, amazing creativity and talent. And I felt really lucky to work with you at that organization. So when this opportunity came up, I was like, we have to talk to Wilnisha because I know she will have a lot of valuable insight.

[02:50] WILNISHA SUTTON: Thank you so much. I remember the interview as well. It was definitely something unique because it was pre Covid. So I was not used to doing like virtual interviewing. But you all were so kind and just welcoming and I definitely remember your smile. Wait, no, you weren't even in the camera. I was like, there's this other person on the end asking questions. But I remember you emailed before I had met you, and you were just so kind and you were out of town that you were just still like, I'm sorry, I'm missing you. I won't be there for your first day, but I'm excited to meet you. And I was just like, wow, she's so thoughtful. And my experience working there was just amazing because I had great leadership like you. You always. You always listen to me, and if there was any opportunities for survivors, you always emailed it to me or let me know. And even if it was like, you were like, well, Wilnisha this is something you can do personally, like, so you don't have to use the nonprofit. And I just totally, totally appreciate you for that. You still do now. Like, I'm just like, wow, I'm so lucky to have Shannon in my corner, like, because I am from California and so I don't really have a big community here. But you have definitely become one of the people that I look to, and I know I can always reach out to if I need your support. So I just want to say thank you. Like, I always tell you, and I truly, truly appreciate you. Like, you are the definition of what an accomplice is. Like, you go over and beyond what an ally would do. And I just totally appreciate you so much.

[04:23] SHANNON SIGAMONI: I appreciate that. Yeah, I text you all the opportunities whenever, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, she's going to be like, stop texting me. So.

[04:30] WILNISHA SUTTON: No, never.

[04:33] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Great. So I guess if you could just kind of describe the work. I know you've done such great work in California and in D.C. so just kind of describe the work that brought you here today. Like, how did you get started?

[04:47] WILNISHA SUTTON: Perfect. The work that brought me here today is my background is just case management. Well, initially, I started as a peer support partner at an organization in California, and I had. I saw an opportunity and I just advocated for myself and told my boss at the time, like, hey, like, I have work experience, I have education. Can I move up to a case management position? And she was like, most definitely you can. And so from there, I was the case manager for victims 12 to 24. And then the unique part about that position and even the position that I took with the anti trafficking organization we worked at together, was that I was able to work with the diversion court. And with those courts, they're specifically for victims, human trafficking, or even those that are at high risk. And the one in D.C. is a little different because they have a Different component of like kids that are missing school a lot. But what I appreciated is that I had my own experience with the justice system that was not that good. And so it was very restorative to see that they had these different diversion courts across the nation that were specifically for youth and it was trauma informed. Now was it perfect? Are they perfect? No, not at all. But I love the fact that like it's very transparent and they have their own judge, they have their own lawyers, their own DAs, their own therapists that are all sitting at the table and advocates as well, case managers sitting at the table, coming together collectively for the betterment of them. And a lot of times they get to be heard in their scenes. So I just really love that and I really love that about my position because it wasn't just a regular case management position. So it was very restorative for me as a survivor to see that this was going on now even though it wasn't available when I was in the life.

[06:50] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah. So that's actually. Thanks for sharing. I was going to say it sounds like you've noticed kind of, which is, you know, one of the questions I had written for later, but you already kind of mentioned it. It sounds like you have already noticed the changes that have happened over the past 20 years in the anti trafficking field.

[07:08] WILNISHA SUTTON: Most definitely I've seen the changes. So my experience, in my trafficking experience, it happened about 15 years ago and with my experience it was just, you are a prostitute and that's it. You can go to a course, don't go by the, don't go to the area where trafficking, where prostitution is happening. You need to take an HIV test. So we were more of being prosecuted than we were as being acknowledged as the victim. Right. But now I see a lot of help and a lot of support and a lot more empathy and understanding for victims. And now we're considered victims. So I definitely see a lot of change happening and I'm super honored and excited to be a part of the change and to have not only a seat at the table, but a voice at the table and to be heard.

[08:05] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah. And I think that's why it's just so important. It always has and it continues to be to involve survivors in things like this and in the grant process and in policies, organizations, et cetera. Because I think part of the reason that things have changed so much is because of survivors like you who were able to come to the table and share your experience and say this is what needs to change.

[08:33] WILNISHA SUTTON: And I agree.

[08:35] SHANNON SIGAMONI: So that's you know, give yourself credit for that. Definitely.

[08:39] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes, I totally agree. Like we definitely need to have a seat, a voice and even a say. I mean a say at the table like you said, a part of the grant process and everything. Because prior to, I believe it was a lot of folks at the table that didn't even understand the population and came with a savers mentality, but realized quickly, like our efforts aren't going far. So if you want to really make change, you need to have experts at the table. And we are the lived experience experts. So why not work with us when most of us. I know for me, when I had got into this field, I was doing activism in California. Gang documentation was something that was very prevalent. I was working with a non profit called Pillars of the Community and we were focused on gang documentation. In my heart I was like, I want to help young girls and women that have been through what I've been through. Like I've been able to change my life without any assistance. So. Well, a little assistance, but not really like any anti trafficking organization assistance. And so it was on my heart and it was on my spirit to get into this field. And so I'm thankful now that the opportunities are grand and I can serve in many capacities.

[09:57] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, absolutely. And that actually kind of leads me to my next question, which you kind of touched on. Obviously your life experience kind of inspired you to start this work, but was there a specific event or a specific person who also inspired you to start this work?

[10:15] WILNISHA SUTTON: That's a good question, I think. Yeah, the specific events. So prior to me getting to this work, I had just identified as a prostitute because that's all I thought I was and that's all that I heard and that was on my record. Right. But then I went to Ghana, I went to Africa and I saw how the black women were treated there, how they were adorned and how they were protected and how they just dress themselves. And of course there is human trafficking going on. They're not as prevalent as in America. And when I saw that, I was like, I've never felt this protected or felt this scene in America. And prior to, I had made. Because I'm a vocalist as well, I had made a song and it went viral. And a lot of women were hitting me up and telling me like, you know, you're a human trafficking victim. And I was like, no, I'm not, I'm a prostitute. Like I chose this lifestyle, like even though I was 17 when it happened, and even though I had complex trauma leading up to my trafficking experience, I was just like, no. Like, I'm not a human trafficking victim. This was the life I chose. But then I also be very frank. It was a lot of white women that were contacting me and telling me, like, you're a human trafficking victim. And the propaganda and the promotion I saw were a lot of white women. I didn't see women that looked like me. I was like, that's for y'all. That's not for me. We don't have the same experience. So when I went to Ghana and I saw all that, I was like, okay. I don't think I really had that many opportunities to really be anything other in that moment than what I was and what I was influenced by in my community at the time. So when I came back to America, I reached out to one of my close friends who happens to be a white woman. Her name is Jess Jawett. And I was like, jess, I think I'm going to start working in the human trafficking community. I think I was human trafficked. She was like. And we worked together previously on, like, Activism Work. She was like, well, they call me Truth. Everybody calls me Truth. She was like, truth, I think you were a victim, too. And it would just dawned on me, and I was like, I was a victim. And then, lo and behold, an opportunity happened to be available, and then I do the interview and get the job. So, yeah, that was how it all happened.

[12:45] SHANNON SIGAMONI: That's really incredible. Yeah. No, it definitely sounds like your experience at Ghana. I know you've kind of told me a little bit about that. It was really life changing for you. And I have heard you sing, and yes, you are so talented and creative.

[12:58] WILNISHA SUTTON: Thank you.

[12:59] SHANNON SIGAMONI: And I love that you're using that to really get your voice out there. And I also think it's hard because sometimes I think we're slowly getting better. But historically, the media and a lot. Mainly the media and what's portrayed as a victim does not look like a black woman. And so, yeah, it's. I think it was probably really. I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but it's probably really hard to see yourself that way.

[13:27] WILNISHA SUTTON: It was extremely hard. Again, like, when that video went viral, it was all these white women hitting me up in no shade to them or anything like that. I was just like, no, we ain't the same people. We don't have the same experience. It's kind of ironic that my white friend was the one that was like, I think you were. And then I listened. But, yeah, it was definitely not a lot of Us being promoted or even having a voice at that time. And I think that was about like six years ago. So even then I see that the process of us getting to a better space collectively in our community is still slowly, gradually happening. So I definitely didn't see faces that look like me. And I. And even now sometimes I don't see it a lot. And even some of my clients, when I show them different pamphlets in different websites for certain programs, they're like, Ms. Sutton, nobody on there looks like me. Nobody working there looks like me. And that's important for any type of media. That representation has to be at the table. And especially when, I can't say across the nation, I'll say in California and in D.C. black women are the main ones that are being victimized when you look at the numbers. So we definitely need to be at the table and we, or else other women are not going to come forth or other victims. I just don't want to just say women, because victims could be male, men, non binary, all that.

[14:58] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it is national and I think that's definitely something that we at otip, like, we, when we fund organizations, we ask to see their trainings because if, you know, we do want to make sure that the trainings and the imagery used is representative of all types of people, it's not. Not the typical, you know, the typical images they used to use would be, which would usually be like a small white girl with some other race, big hands over her mouth, or something like that. When that's just not the reality of what trafficking looks like.

[15:37] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes. And when we do that, we make it look like trafficking is like the movie taken or like a movie show and it's not realistic to what's really happening in America. This is happening in our neighborhood. These are happening at your churches, at your bus stops, at the malls. So we got to be real in order to really face this thing head on. We can't like beat around the bush with it.

[15:59] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, absolutely. So kind of to add to that then, how do you feel like your work differs from most people's perceptions of what your. What anti trafficking work looks like?

[16:14] WILNISHA SUTTON: That's a really good question. I think it differs because most people think that like when you work for these nonprofits or these organizations that you're like, you need to get out of the life and you need to come with me. I can save you, I can help you. When in reality we can't. A lot of times we don't even have the grant funding, the funding or the grants to just pay for people's basic needs. So how can we tell them to get out of the life? All we can do is reduce the harm and hopefully give them, give them opportunities or give them resources so that they don't have to be in the life that long or get out some way somehow or plant a seed and eventually it can grow and they can get out of the lifestyle. But we're not here to save. Well, I'm not here to save anyone. My goal is to always to just be that, that, that sunlight or that sunflower. I love sunflowers. That sunflower in somebody's life to let them know, like, hey, if I can change my life, you can change your life too. And I don't ever lie to them. I'm always 100 with my clients, always. And let them know like what I can and what I can't do. I don't ever promise them anything that is unrealistic or not in my job description because I don't ever want them to be like Ms. Sutton lied to. She told me she could do this and she can't know. This is what I can do, honey. And I understand that you have, you have life to live and if I can't provide your basic needs, then who am I to tell you that you need to change and get out of this lifestyle? It's their choice. It's their life.

[17:52] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, no, that, that definitely makes sense. I think too, people think that when you're working in the anti trafficking field, you're working with survivors or victims that aren't from the US all the time or.

[18:07] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes.

[18:07] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah. Or you know, why don't they just leave? Like they're connected to an anti organization so they should be good now where it's like, no, you know, it's a lot more complicated than that. So I definitely agree with you.

[18:20] WILNISHA SUTTON: There is very complicated. And too like this is humans working with humans. So a lot of people that are working with these anti trafficking organizations, they got their own stuff that they gotta deal with and unpack. A lot of times it's a lot of re traumatization happening because folks aren't doing their work, they're not going to therapy. Like we expect survivors to go to therapy and to share their story, all their gruesome experiences that they've experienced. And a lot of people are just sitting at the table yet they haven't even broken their spirit open and done their work. But they want to hear everything about the survivor. So it's a lot of things that come into play that I think, like, folks don't think of when they hear the anti trafficking movement or community.

[19:05] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, absolutely. And that kind of. That kind of leads really well into one of the other questions I had for you, which is, what advice would you have for people wishing to make a difference?

[19:16] WILNISHA SUTTON: Oh, I always love this. My first thing is, please do not come into this field thinking you're going to save anyone. We don't need you to save us, honey. We have everything inside of us to save ourselves. We are resilient, we are brave. We have been through a lot of things that we had to navigate on our own. What we need is folks to come in and bring empathy, bring love, bring understanding, to see things in me that I can't see in myself. Mentorship opportunities. Be a Shannon. Okay? Like, give me opportunities that, you know, align with who I want to be and just do your work, please. That is something that I emphasize all the time. Do your work. If you want to work in this field and you don't want to do any harm, then you need to go to therapy. You need to deal with your prejudices, your biases, your bias. Sorry. And your white privilege if you have that, you need to deal with. We all are infected by. By white supremacy, so we all have to heal from that together, collectively. So don't think you're coming in here to save little black and brown girls or white girls. We don't. We don't need the saving. You can leave that for the movies. This is real life. We need support. We need love. We just need human things.

[20:43] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah. No, I love that. I love that you said to come in and see opportunities that we may not see in ourselves.

[20:50] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes.

[20:51] SHANNON SIGAMONI: We've met so many clients that have so much to offer. It's just helping them see that it is.

[20:57] WILNISHA SUTTON: And that is what helped me a lot on my journey. And I didn't have. Again, I was not in any anti trafficking organization when I got out of the lifestyle, but I went to college and I had mentors and I was in different programs. And what I was honored to have was folks that were like, well, Neisha, you're a great leader. I'm like, me. You're great at speaking. I'm like, what? Or will you? And I was like, wow. So it was things that I couldn't see in myself at the time because of the trauma and the drama and all the things that I carry with me. So those people were able to see those things which helped me lift that weight off my shoulder and then allow me to Shine and even now, like I would reach out to you or reach out to other co workers that we had at the anti trafficking organization. We worked that together and be like, hey, like I don't know if I could do this or you guys would just let me know, like, well, you're going to be great at this. I'm like, really, like still to this day, it's just simple things like that, that, that go a long way.

[21:56] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think everyone needs that extra support sometimes, especially when you've been through so much trauma, like that's so crucial.

[22:04] WILNISHA SUTTON: So I agree.

[22:07] SHANNON SIGAMONI: So what do you, I think we kind of talked about this a little bit. So let me know if it's, if it feels repetitive. But what do you, what do you wish more people knew or understood about human trafficking and the fight to end it?

[22:25] WILNISHA SUTTON: I wish more people knew that there's some good questions. I wish people knew that when it comes to adults, emphasize adults and they're not being forced or cohorts or lied into this lifestyle. Some people really do choose sex work and I think they should have that choice if that's what they want to do as an adult. When it comes to the, the minors, I, I wish that the johns or the buyers will be the main focus as far as like who's being prosecuted and held accountable. If there's no buyers, then there will be no need for suppliers. Right. If we keep giving them a slap on the wrist or a little misdemeanor or a dawn school, what is that doing to these men? Primarily because if you look at statistics, it's mostly men that are. What is that doing for them? What is. That's nothing. Most of them are wealthy. Most of them, they could just blow 200 to 500 to $1,000 easily. Like we need more hefty fines and more hefty time for them, especially when it comes to these children. Like we really want to protect our children. I think that's where our focus should be. I'm not saying that like we should allow traffickers to get off easily. No, not at all. But we might want to start looking at that component because, and I'm not trying to make excuses for any traffickers or anything, but some of them just like we were groomed into this lifestyle, some of them were groomed into the lifestyle. And if you ask some of the folks that were victimized, some of us taught them how to be traffickers or pimps. So it's a lot that goes into this lifestyle. And if folks really listen to the Survivors, we could really find real solutions that. I don't know if it will end, but maybe not in our lifetime. We could find real solutions that can help minimize it and minimize the harm and protect our children. I think that's our most important. Our most important fight is the children. So we need to protect them from these sex buyers that are just like a lot of times very gross, just to be transparent.

[24:56] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, no, thanks for sharing that. And I. And I kind of. To your point about the traffickers, I found that really interesting. I have thought for a while, I mean, all because I. I worked at. I don't know if you knew this. I, before we worked together, I worked at Howard University Hospital and I worked with, yes, survivors of trauma as far as community violence, like gunshot wounds, stab wounds, and a lot of the times they had also done that. Like they were at that time the victim, but at some point they had shot someone. They had, you know, stabbed someone, whatever the case. And I guess I think it just, to your point about traffickers, it shows that that trauma is complicated and we don't know all the time what a trafficker's childhood looked like. Right. Or what they've been through.

[25:45] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yeah.

[25:45] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Has now them in this situation. Not defending them either at all, by any means, but it is something interesting, definitely.

[25:54] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yeah. Some of them have very much so been victimized. Some of the work that I do back home in San Diego, California, I work with some guys from my neighborhood that used to be in that lifestyle and have that title. They don't like the word trafficker. They like the word pimp. So I wouldn't even disrespect them and say that. But a few of their stories were that an older woman groomed them and taught them the lifestyle that she thought that he would make a business partner or something. So that's what he learned. And then you got to think the money that he's making, $500 an hour, if that, like, why would he want to go get a job at McDonald's? He probably don't even have a high school diploma or some of them. I know that, like some of my uncles, like, they were into that lifestyle. And so they would tell, like my cousins and stuff, like, you know, this is what you gotta do and things of that nature. And it was, it was normalized in my family from those uncles. Right. And it was normalized to hear that in the black community. But then when I started getting more educated, it was like, this is gross. Like, I can't believe. Like, this is what they're you know, perpetuating and teaching the next generation. But that's all they knew. So if we want to be solution focused and we really are thinking about ending human trafficking. Human trafficking, then we have to do it in a holistic way for everybody, not just for the victims and even for the johns as well. They were taught that behavior by somebody or something. Or maybe it's the power dynamic. Whatever it may be, we need to treat everybody as though they could be a victim and not like you need to be penalized because who knows, Shannon, maybe in about five years they'll start a program for traffickers. And now all of a sudden, they're not traffickers, they're businessmen. Because 14 years ago I was just a prostitute. So who knows? We might be having this thing. We might be wrong in some areas. We. I think we need to really open up our mind. If the goal is really to help everybody at the table, if that's the real goal.

[28:03] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, no, I completely agree. I think that approaching it from all aspects, like you said, is the way to go. Absolutely, yes.

[28:12] WILNISHA SUTTON: Thank you.

[28:15] SHANNON SIGAMONI: You kind of talked about this as well. Just like survivors. Being resilient yourself, being resilient in your life. How do you define resilience and what have been some of the sources of resilience in your life?

[28:29] WILNISHA SUTTON: Good question. Resilience, to me, I define it as just being brave and not giving up. Even when you've been knocked down or you can't see the silver lining or things are just dark and you just crawling through just to get through. Even if you gotta crawl. Excuse me, you crawl. Even if you gotta. Martin Luther King said something like that. If you gotta walk, you walk. If you can run, you run. I think that is what resiliency is to me. And did you ask who did I just.

[29:05] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Have there been any sources of resilience which you've kind of touched on a bit?

[29:10] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes, most definitely. My mother is my main source of resilience. That woman is just amazing. She overcame a lot in her life. I was born in the 80s, so during the crack era in the black community. And she definitely was affected by that. And I was in the system for a while, and she definitely. She signed her parental rights away. But by the grace of God, she got her parental rights back, which was. Doesn't rarely ever happen. And she got off drugs and she did it. She didn't go to any AA or any type of rehab, and that's no shame to anyone that has done that. But she just stopped on her own. She went back to college and she got a job and her focus was to get her children back. And that's exactly what she did. And she was always vocal about her experience. She never shamed herself, she never hid it. She went to college and she would have these scholarships and she would speak about it. And so she always tells me I'm her mini me times 10. So I'm just living. She gave me the baton. So I'm just. Now I have my own experience and I'm just taking it on. But my mother, Juanita Robinson, she is my source of resiliency and even to this day my number one motivator and my number one person that would tell me about myself really fast, like, you ain't doing this right or you can do this better. So I'm just so. I'm so honored and just so grateful to have a mother like her to just her story. And she took me to college with her to be able to see that. So when I got out of the lifestyle, where did I go to college and then started telling my story and got scholarships and I was able to take her to lunches and me stand on stage and tell my story. So it's just. It's a beautiful thing for her to. For me to be able to be this bold person that I learned from her. So I give all honor and reverence to her.

[31:12] SHANNON SIGAMONI: That's amazing. She sounds like a really strong woman. And definitely I see that you're following her footsteps for sure and so grateful for people like you and people like her that aren't ashamed of telling your story because how would you inspire other people if you didn't?

[31:28] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes.

[31:29] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah.

[31:29] WILNISHA SUTTON: What about you, Shannon? What do you think resiliency means to you and who is your source?

[31:35] SHANNON SIGAMONI: That's a good question. I mean, yeah, I definitely. Same same as you. Just being able to get up again and persevere through every everything life has handed you. I would also say my parents, they have went through a lot. They are immigrants to the US And I saw them come from nothing, two, three, four jobs to being very successful. My mom is also very admirable. She is a boss lady and everyone, everyone around her. So I love that about her and I think I followed her footsteps a lot with. Especially in my career. She doesn't work in. It's funny, she actually works for D.C. child and Family Services, but she doesn't do social services. She's in like the business side of it. But it's definitely follow her as well because she's definitely set the tone for me. Of how to be a boss lady.

[32:33] WILNISHA SUTTON: A boss. Because you are a boss. Yes. Are we so lucky though? Because the folks that we serve, a lot of them don't have family and they don't have great caregivers. And I think that's one of the reasons why, like, too I got into this work. Like, I. My mom always gave back to people. Like, that's. She would give her last to people. Even to this day, I have to teach her self care. Do you have to teach your mama self care?

[32:58] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Definitely. Absolutely.

[33:01] WILNISHA SUTTON: Like, I had to teach her like, mom, if you can't give everything away, then what are you gonna have for yourself, even when it comes to your children?

[33:07] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yes, yes, yes.

[33:09] WILNISHA SUTTON: So I'm just, you know, I was gonna say that's.

[33:12] SHANNON SIGAMONI: That's their main thing. I mean, she did everything for me and my sister, and I'm so, so grateful for that. I don't have kids yet soon, but I. Yeah, but I. Yeah, she. I mean, she gave everything to us that I have to be like, okay, I'm 30 years old. Time to focus on you now. Like, right.

[33:30] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes.

[33:31] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah.

[33:32] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yeah. So we're so blessed to have our parents and to have strong women. And it's women's month. Yay. Strong women in our lives that, you know, showed us the way because a lot of our clients and a lot of people we serve, they don't have that. And so I think we should give ourselves kudos as well, because we are that in a lot of people's lives.

[33:52] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think about simple things like when I first had to do my taxes or, you know, it's just the most basic things. When we bought this house.

[34:01] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes. Financial aid for college. Right. Like, my mom helped me through that and it was easy for me. Then when I started doing. I was an ambassador at San Diego City College for a while. A lot of the students were like, what? How do I do this? I'm like, wow. Like, I was. I had a lot of privilege.

[34:20] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Not to harp on this too. I don't want to go off topic, but it just. I had a right. A neighbor of mine actually knocked on our door last year and it was the saddest, heartbreaking. He was just looking for people to co sign his loan, his college. And so it's just like being able to feel so grateful for what we have. It's incredible.

[34:43] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes.

[34:44] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah.

[34:46] WILNISHA SUTTON: Agree.

[34:47] SHANNON SIGAMONI: So awesome. Thanks, Manisha. What is this? So what is the greatest? I feel like these questions are kind of overlapping, but what is the greatest Lesson you've learned from the work that you've done.

[35:05] WILNISHA SUTTON: Never judge a book by its cover, honey. I have so many different incidents that are popping up in my head, but one incident. I always tell this story of this client, and I don't even like the word client. In San Diego, we use the word partner. I love that. Better this partner. So this partner, she was a young black girl. She was taller than most people and a little more bigger than most people as well. And her voice was huge. She was very vocal. She knew the system better than most of us that worked at the program. She knew the program better than most of us that worked at the program. So she. It wasn't really much that we could tell her that she didn't know. And prior to me working there, they had. Did a lot of. They spoiled her. I'm gonna just be frank. They spoiled her. We had more funding from, like, private funders at the time, so the money they were able to use. However, when that program manager left, a lot of those ways left as well. So we had a new program manager, and this partner was just not happy with the changes. She was used to coming in, getting what she wanted, when she wanted and how she wanted it. And me being me, I'm very much so empathetic. I'm loving, I'm understanding. But because I am a survivor, I really don't. I hold a hard line because I know that there's more inside of them than most people know. And yes, I do feel their story. And again, I'm empathetic. But at the same time, I'm like, come on, girl, you can't play me. So she would try, she would push. She would push, and I would push back at her. And she was getting to the age of. She was aging out of our program. And so I'm like, honey, like, you have gotten a lot of opportunities. You've been in this program since you were 13. So they've been here for you. They've helped you a lot along the way. Now you're about to go into this real world without all these services and its help, and it's not going to be so nice. So I was trying to really push her to be more independent. And she. It was really tough. And she didn't have any family. She didn't have a lot of support. So I was kind of like her support at the time. And so she would cuss me out. She would come to the program and tell me, I'm not doing anything for her. She didn't want to Talk to me. She would talk to other staff. Hurt my little feelings sometimes, but I never took it personal. Well, sometimes, I'm going to be honest, I did take it personal sometimes, but I worked through it in my supervisions, and I did my work because, honestly, she reminded me of myself a lot. And so I had to do that work within myself to check myself. And so she was very sad when. No, she wasn't even in the program anymore when I left and I moved to D.C. but she found me on Facebook and she inboxed me and she was like, because in San Diego, they call me Wilnisha They don't use the. They don't use the last names. They're not as proper as Washington, D.C. area. She was like, well, Wilnisha you changed my life. If it wasn't for you, I don't think I would be where I was at. She called me one time because she was having suicidal ideation, and I was able to help her navigate through that. And so I say that to say I did not think in that moment, Shannon, that I had made that impact on her. I was like, I don't think I did anything for her. I don't think I was there for her. Maybe I pushed her a little too hard. But come to find out, I was exactly what she needed. And that forever stays with me. Her story, just who she is. I always pray for her and send her good energy. And I just will not ever judge a book by its cover. And then also just to talk about, you know, like, pronouns and things of that nature, I was dealing with another client, and this client taught me a lot about pronouns. They were transitioning into a male. And forgive me if I'm saying this wrong, if anybody's listening to this, I'm still learning. But they taught me so much about the LGBTQI community and showed me so much grace when I would say her, because some days they would dress more feminine and other days more masculine and was so gracious with me. I was like, oh, my God, please forgive me. This understanding is sudden. Just keep trying, Keep trying. And I was just so honored to be able to go through that. So now I'm always like, what's your pronouns? And I honor them. Like, these partners have taught me so much, and it's changed my life so much.

[39:52] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Yeah, no, absolutely. That's incredible. And I think that's the best you can do, right, Is try to keep learning. And, yes, you know, that's. I mean, that. That's the best you can do. Thanks for sharing that.

[40:04] WILNISHA SUTTON: Of course.

[40:07] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Kind of getting into the specific, like, kind of going back to specific, specific anti trafficking. And just like the. In general, what would you. We'll start with gaps because we'll end on a positive note. But what are some gaps in the anti trafficking response that's to be addressed in your opinion?

[40:30] WILNISHA SUTTON: What are some gaps I need to be addressed? I would just. Oh my God, this, I know this is going to sound crazy to people that are listening, but for grants, anybody that's listening that give grants, please put food into the grants, please. Food is so vital. I remember when I first started working with the program in San Diego, we have funding for food, so we were able, even $10 just to take the client to McDonald's if that's where they wanted to go, any place they want. Spend $10. That just helps so much on the rapport building folks. I don't know why they don't think. I mean, I understand, I get it. You know, it's a grand thing and they gotta focus on specific things that need to be met. But in this community, food is vital. So if you all can revisit that, please put a budget in there for some food. And then of course, the thing that I said about the buyers and the johns, I think they need a healthier fine. Treated like a, like a DUI. The first time, $2,000, $5,000, second time $10,000. Like make it big to where they don't want to pay back and even make it to where they have to. Make it to where they have to. What was I trying to say? Make it to where they have to maybe be after the second time they have to register as a sex offender. Like it needs to be more hefty fines and relations because I think that they're just getting away with it. And imagine if some of these folks are in the same room in the anti trafficking community in the same room. I can only imagine how that's stroking their ego to know like what's going on and things are not being geared towards them. I think those are the, the main two things that I could think of.

[42:25] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Awesome. No, that's really helpful. So I think that's another reason that survivor voices are so important with grants. It's actually up to the organization to write in food in the budget. And you know, funders usually approve that, but if an organization doesn't know, then they might not write it in. So again, another reason that having the survivor voices there to say like food is such a great way to build rapport. That's why it's so important. It's so important to hear from, hear things like that. And what I really love about working at OTIP is I thought coming into the federal government would be, I'd be so removed from that direct service world, but I have found that they do such an excellent job of taking, you know, there's, there's lots of different survivor councils and things like that that create reports and recommendations and they take those and they really try to implement that into their programming. And so one initiative that I'm working on this year that, I mean it's, we're just in the research stages. Who knows if it will even happen but is to really figure out a way to work with survivor led organizations, especially those that are just starting out and need those resources. How do I apply to federal funding? How do I do this, how do I do that? And we're going to be trying to get them technical and training assistance so we can have more anti trafficking survivor led organizations.

[43:58] WILNISHA SUTTON: That's wonderful. And you will be great at that because you're so supportive and understanding. So you're already doing it now with me. I'm not an organization. But you already. Yes, I definitely want to. So if you all have that program, I already know you're gonna let me know when it happens. So I'll be ready.

[44:16] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Of course. Always. Awesome. I know we're probably coming up on time soon, so I do just want to ask just two more questions. But you. We kind of did touch on this earlier and I know one of the things you mentioned was having a different like criminal justice system for youth who have experienced trafficking.

[44:37] WILNISHA SUTTON: Yes.

[44:38] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Are there any other accomplishments that the anti trafficking field has had in the last 20 years, would you say?

[44:46] WILNISHA SUTTON: Most definitely. Criminal vacature. Oh my gosh. I just received my criminal vacateure. So let me break that down for folks that don't know. So pretty much criminal vacature is this thing to where like during your victimization, if you have anything that's on your record from misdemeanor to felony, and it happened during a time while you're being victimized and you tell your story by creating a declaration with a lawyer, then you can have it to where your record is not expunged, not clear, but like they have to demolish your file like it never existed. So I work with this organization in San Diego called Free to Thrive. Shout out to Jamie and Dion. Oh my gosh, I love them so much. And so we went through a process and they found me a pro bono lawyer. I cannot think of the name of the Cooper Cooper Firm. I love them as well. Philippa and Kelly. They are so. Oh, my gosh, they're so amazing. So, again, my experience with the criminal justice system was horrible when I was in the lifestyle. So imagine a woman going into a law firm, sitting down, and a woman's coming to me, asking me, do you want some coffee? Do you want some water?

[46:16] SHANNON SIGAMONI: What kind of creamer do you want?

[46:18] WILNISHA SUTTON: I'm like, what is this? Hold on. But anyways, they help me with everything as far as created my declaration, which a declaration is your whole story from when you were born pretty much until now. And it just shows, like, your trauma, the drama, the history, and even how you changed your life if that was the case. And so they helped me create my declaration. I just sat there, told them my story, and they just wrote it all out and created this declaration for me. And then I even had to go to the courts, to where I was criminalized at and petition. I only had to go to one court, which was in Orange County, Louisiana, and San Diego. They didn't require me to be there. I was able to have representation there for me, but the Orange county court was where I had the most traumatic experience. And so Jamie, which is the founder, one of the founders of Free to Thrive, she offered to drive me from San Diego to Orange county, which was like, an hour and a half drive. So I was nervous because, again, I had a horrible experience there. And so she drove me there. She let me know exactly what to expect and let me know that when this is brand new, most of these courts don't even know about this. They're like, what do you mean? We have to destroy someone's record? So there might be some kinks in the. In the. In the. In this. But just, I'm here with you to support you. So we get to the court, and the court style is just like a. Like if you got a traffic ticket. So there's a lot of people in the. In the court. And so as soon as we get there, the judge is like, oh, I want to see what Misha said. And I'm like, I just walked up a flight of stairs. Can I catch my breath? I think I'm still sweating. So we get to the thing, and the judge is like, I read over your declaration, and I must say, you know, I'm really proud of you and who did all this work? And in my mind, I'm like, oh, my lawyers, they did the declaration. He's like, no, you did the work to change your life. I'm so proud of you. Can I come off my bench and shake your hand? I was like, what? I was like, yes, you can. So he came off his bench, he shook my hand, and the whole. The whole court just started clapping. And just, like, I was like, is this really happening? What a way to, like, restore my faith in the justice system. What a way to restore my experience that I had already experienced in Orange county court, in. In jail. And so we left out. And Jamie was like, well, Wilnisha this has never happened before. And so again with the criminal vacation, sorry I had to tell that little story, because I'm just always so proud of you. So we. I have representation for all three courts. San Diego, California, San Diego, Louisiana, and Orange County. It took a year and a half for it to actually go through, though, because, again, this is brand new. And so it was a bit frustrating. I remember even when I applied for the position with you all, I had to let you all know, like, hey, I have this on my record. And, you know, was something that we navigated through together. But now, even though I'm in D.C. my lawyers are always sending me. I think I got a. I got a email from them yesterday. They were like, okay, well, Wilnisha here's a copy of this. Your record is actually destroyed in National City, which is in San Diego. And, like, they. They're so helpful. Like, they gave me a whole folder of everything I needed. And then. So now I don't have to say that I've was a prostitute. It's nowhere stated on my record that I was a prostitute anymore. And also, with Free to Thrive, they gave me award before I left and came to DC For a Thriver of the Year award. So I'm just so thankful for Free to Thrive and just for the opportunity to have criminal vacature, because that used to stop me from getting jobs. I remember one time I almost got a job at a photography place. Like, me and my family, we went to go take pictures. And I'm very bossy like you, and especially with family, right? And so we're seven of us. I'm like, no, do this. No, do that. Okay, come on, y'all. Smell. Come on, y'all. And so then the girl was like, you're really good at this. Do you want a job here? I was like, sure. And I always have, like, unorthodox ways of getting jobs. And so did the interview, and they weren't able to hire me because of my background. And another time, I had an opportunity to work as a teacher's Assistant. I had already started, and it was contingent upon my background and me being me. My friends call me a stupid truth teller because I'm always telling the truth. That's your nickname.

[51:11] SHANNON SIGAMONI: That's your name. Truth.

[51:12] WILNISHA SUTTON: It is my day, right? Yes. And so I was working there, fell in love with the kids. I think I worked there for, like, three weeks. And I was just like, hey, ask them, like, did you guys get my background check yet? And they're like, no, we haven't gotten it yet. She was like, well, do you want to tell me what it's for? And I told her. And then the next day, she was like, we got to let you go. And then come to find out. They didn't have to let me go, but the position was already filled, and that job at the time was about, like, $17 an hour, and I didn't have a degree, so, like, I have missed out on these opportunities to change my life. So criminal vacation is something that is tremendously needed for survivors. If we're really talking about, like, folks changing their lives and really feeling like a regular citizen.

[51:56] SHANNON SIGAMONI: No, absolutely. And I'm so glad you shared that story. That definitely put a smile on my face. And I think another thank you to you, Lanisha, because, like, as you just said, there's no record anywhere of your history of what you've been through, but you're still choosing to share it to make that impact on other survivors, and that's really huge. So thank you for that. That's amazing.

[52:21] WILNISHA SUTTON: No problem. That's one thing that the lawyers, they always tell me. Philippa, she's like, misha, I know this took a long time, but you're one of the. You're the four. You're one of the first people that this has ever happened to. So you have. You're going through the struggle for other people. So I'm like, I gotta tell this story.

[52:39] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Absolutely. And that kind of leads me to my closing question, which is, how would you like to be remembered? Like, what legacy do you want to leave for your family or your community?

[52:52] WILNISHA SUTTON: Oh, I love this. The legacy I want to be known as is that I did speak my truth and that I was brave, I was resilient, that I had a great love for humanity but a special love for black people, in that I love myself. I love myself enough to go hard and to heal. And within my healing, I was able to heal others.

[53:23] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Amazing.

[53:24] WILNISHA SUTTON: And I was rich, too.

[53:27] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Of course.

[53:29] WILNISHA SUTTON: We can't leave that out.

[53:30] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Of course. Well, thank you so much, Wilnisha again, for talking to me. It's been really amazing catching up with you. Of course, thank you for sharing your story and of course I will continue to send you a million opportunities when I come across.

[53:44] WILNISHA SUTTON: Thank you Shannon. I totally appreciate you. Again, you are the definition of an accomplice. If you all want to know how to change your life from an ally to accomplice, get Shannon up and she can teach you thy ways. I truly appreciate you. I appreciate thanks and also I'm thankful for OTIP for this opportunity and just honored to be a part of this beautiful, beautiful initiative you all are putting together.

[54:11] SHANNON SIGAMONI: Awesome. Thanks so much. Wilnisha no.