Sheryl Olitzky and Atiya Aftab

00:03 I today is Wednesday, July 21st. 2021. I'm Cheryl alicki 65. And my partner is a GF tub. Who is the co-founder of The Sisterhood of salaam Shalom with me?

00:19 Hi everyone. It's Wednesday, July 21st, 2021. My name is a TIA off table and I am 53 and I am here with Charlotte Ski my partner and co-founder of The Sisterhood of salaam shalom.

00:35 So is Cia, I share the story with everyone, but let's start with how we first met. And I remember calling the Imam and say, I really want to start this group with Muslim and Jewish women to get to know each other. Could you give me a name?

00:58 And I know what I did, but, but let's hear from you. What happened? After I got your name. Well, it was, it was a summer day, right? At the first time you call me. I believe it was August, and I remember getting home from work and listen to it. You know, those of us who know what the voice voice mails, are at home, turning on the answering machine, in hearing your voice thinking who is this woman? And I remember Cheryl you said something to the effect of, I'm a Jewish woman and I want to meet a Muslim woman and I was inspired by this trip. I went you to Poland, and I was just like, oh my God, what is this about? And unfortunately, I didn't call you back right away. It took some persistence and I finally called you back. I think I'm the third call baby when you call my cell phone when I realized that this woman is really good. I'm not going to stop her is like a freight train. I need to meet you at least respond and and and, you know, see where she's going, but sure, why don't you talk about what inspired you even to call me. Because I think, you know,

01:57 I think that's what that into. This was right to pick up the phone and say absolutely. So they were several aha moments in my life that happened over a course of about twenty years. And the final one was I was leading a tour of 35. People were merely Jewish. There were some Christians on the tour to Poland and we were on the way to auswitch. And I was very bothered that I didn't see anyone who looked different. Everyone looked the same. I didn't see anyone of color. I didn't see anyone who I could identify as having an Asian background. I didn't see anyone identifying, as lgbtq. I didn't see any head coverings at all, and I was really bothered by this. So I was at the front of the bus, leaving the group, and I had a local polish guide with me, and I took the microphone and I said, excuse me sir as well.

02:57 Can you explain something to me? I'm very confused. Why don't I see any one that looks like any of the people on this list. I just rattled off and he took the microphone for me. And he said, yes, my dear. You're right hole in just for the poles and you mentioned head coverings. Maybe you were talking about Muslims, will we don't have a Muslim problem here because they're not welcome. And that was the final. Aha moment. As I was walking on the sacred ground in Oshkosh with one of the worst places in the world that depicts what happens with eight. And this case, it was hate toward other Faith groups to add other preferences that people may have to deficiencies. That people may have as I'm walking there. I'm thinking, you know,

03:48 Who's to stop this from happening in the future. And the words that came out of that tour guides mouth?

03:55 Back in the thirties were said about you. He said it today about Muslims. And who am I to just? Listen to those words and not doing anything. I got a choice, I could sit back on the sidelines or I could get up and dance. And I decided I was going to get up and dance and when I got home, I was going to do something to ensure that this hate toward the other never happened on my dime to Muslims in my community problem was, I didn't know if I did know the local, Imam who happened to be at easy, mom, and if you happen to be the chair of the board of of the mask at that time, and so, I called him up. And and he recognized my voice and my name and he said, I've got just the woman for you. She's a leader in the community and I've got just the women. Can I be involved in this? And I said no.

04:53 Just for us. I'm in one other past thing and then I'm going to turn it back to my partner, Chia, but I remember calling you and I could hear my heart beating, I could hear it and you didn't answer. And then I called again and you didn't answer and I called again, and I'm thinking she doesn't want to meet me because I'm Jewish. Oh my gosh. I'm trying to change the world. In this isn't going to happen. And then the phone rang.

05:23 And then I'll turn it over to you at GM. What happens when we spoke? And then when we met and it's so funny, cuz you know. It's so important to know what the story was before you picked up that phone, right? And I might end of it, I had been. And I can, I am so grateful that you is, you say, You dance, right? That you came at it and said, I'm going to do something after that. Experience in Poland. And when you do, I simply didn't call back immediately cuz I was busy. I was busy with my kids were very young and I was working and I just

05:56 I didn't know what this was about, it was, you know, it's just some informational thing what's going on here and when we spoke I also thought to myself. Okay. I'm going to spend a couple hours and meet Cheryl for de fer coffee. And you know, I didn't think this was going to become anything long-term is that time? I just said, okay. Yeah, let me just appease this woman and I can I can take some time out for coffee. But of course, you know, when we met at like as they say, it's all history. When we met at Starbucks and had coffee. We we really hit it off and I wasn't anticipating that. And I really took my breath away because my experience with interface before that again is, is you mentioned. I was very involved in Moss leadership was a rather negative experience or maybe just a neutral experience neutral to negative where

06:51 It was something that was very male-dominated. You had, you know, I'm a male, Rabbi mail, generally speaking, right? I'm a Christian leader priest pastor and, you know, it would be more of an academic discussion few logical discussion about this is Islam when I want, this is what you do is, you know, stands for and people would really listen. Okay. And they learn something but really walk out of the room. And I did I just didn't see any impact and it wasn't meaningful to me. So when you approached me and said, let's get to know one another let's think about maybe, you know, doing something from this point forward, it appealed to me because it was something different it appealed to me because it was women coming to win in a women to women, coming to other women and connecting really on a personal level. It wasn't about what is Aslam. It's about. What is this song mean to me? How do I live as a Muslim woman? How do you live as a Jewish woman? What are challenges and ultimately Cheryl?

07:51 You just about getting to know someone different that you just are. You don't, you're not needing in your normal Social Circle, right? And asking those questions. I mean quite frankly, I grew up in a very Jewish dominated Community had many Jewish friends and we were friends, just I think really religion wasn't talked about a lot because it's just kind of awkward to talk about but we are going with different, right? Our goal was to create a space where you can ask those questions. Will we know? Why are you doing this? Or, you know, what you believe is different than may be what I believe, or what are your practices that are different? And where do you have that opportunity? Right? Where do you have that opportunity? And and the whole premise of The Sisterhood is based on, it's easy to hate someone, you don't know.

08:39 But when you know them, it's harder and when you care about them and literally fall in love with them, it's impossible. So our goal has been to ensure that every Muslim woman and teenage girl and every Jewish women in teenage girl. Now, I could say in North America and his were moving into Europe in Europe and God willing, we could send the whole world. Not only knows each other, but cares about each other and love each other and we know from the social scientists. We know from our own research, that that's how you get rid of hate negative stereotypes and perceptions, and that's how you influence, others. And that day at Starbucks Sparks were flying. I'm surprised we didn't burn down the whole Starbucks.

09:37 Give me, it was amazing. And I can honestly say, starting with our relationship, not only between the two of us, but our families. I understand you and your values. I understand your faith believes. I understand Islam now. I understand myself better and I understand Judaism better. And now I translate that to the eight thousand or so women in teenage girls around the world that are involved in The Sisterhood and there's no doubt that we have changed the curve of hate and of Starrett negative stereotypes and Prejudice because we do understand each other and we've created this trust and respect. We don't have to agree on everything and none of us agree on everything so I can have three different opinions.

10:37 Bringing together Jews and Muslims. We don't have to agree. What we do. Agree to agree on within The Sisterhood is to listen to one another to not please judgments. And she say, okay. I've learned more about you now because of what you believe, and I don't necessarily agree with it, but I'm a better person because I've expanded the way I do the world now listening to how you do.

11:13 This is an experiment. Let's see how it goes. And that was just after we met once at once and it was an experiment and we build those relationships. Right? And it it was pretty immediate and pretty an impact for which I think was just amazing because you had sister saying yeah, and I do the same thing. I have the same challenges as you know, I have the same, you know, issues with raising my kids. I have the same challenges at work. I have the same challenges in my religious institution and just, you know, what were we were? We all had just the same issues as being women also, right? When it came down to whatever the faith was and and I guess we had, we just have to replicate it.

12:00 And I remember, so clearly you saw an article.

12:07 About Albania a predominantly Muslim country. That was the only country in Europe, where the number of Jews increased during the Shoah during the Holocaust and the king. At the time, said, he or she who saves one life. It's as if they save the whole world, he or she who killed one life. It is, as if they say, the whole world, which is in the Koran as well as in the Thomas and it's the principle of both our faith groups and the King ordered everyone to protect and hide every Jew that came through the country and not one. Jew was killed. The only country in Europe and like I said the numbers increased, so you heard about this great program, you sent me this article and with it, five minutes. I was on the phone with the person date of form about it. And the short story is we brought it to the local library, to just do it.

13:07 Bald Community program. There was a journalist there. They posted an article about The Sisterhood on the internet and now you and I are getting hundreds and hundreds of emails and the real actual, right? I mean, that would we had the Ambassador from Albania. We had the photographer who had done a book on this. It's called basa. This situation where Muslims and some Christians, as well, and taken in Jews fleeing from the Holocaust. And we had him, you know, we had that and we had a woman who's Muslim, who is in-laws head had been the family that had taken in a Jewish family and it was amazing. Write the program was amazing. We had all these women and men there and family said, last night. She had the museum, right? So you be traveling Museum from the Hebrew Union College set up in the library, and I think it went on for months and ended.

14:07 No, it was so positively received and people were like, really Wilson. Since you got a long has actually saved. You was right. It was really one of those moments where we sometimes only look at history on, you know, based on what's going on around us right now, which is not history. And I think that was a, that was amazing, right? They responsible and I remember saying to you. Okay, attia.

14:33 This chapter of ours has been one of the greatest things that has ever happened to me that you've heard me say this before, you're not only my

14:45 Best friend, you're my sister, and your husband, and your kids are my family members. Is it without a doubt without a doubt? But now we're do we do. This is change like life in and Rich me and my family's life and there's hundreds and hundreds of women who want to be a part of it. Exactly. Who are? We to withhold this from them? So we decided let's create a pilot and see if we could with two local chapters create them and see if we could create something that could be replicated and that was in 2012. We were truly started in 2010. That was in 2012, the end of 2013, November of 2013.

15:42 You are one of the things that you do, one of your many professional things is you are a, an attorney and you specialize in non-profit, La, you worked with us and we did all these papers official year with a fiscal sponsor, took a full year November of 14. I remember we received our letter that we were a 501 c 3 and at that time I think we had six chapters in April of 16. We had 25 at the time of the elections and 16. We doubled. It went up to 50 Cent's happened. We were on the front page above the centerfold of the New York Times you and I were on the Today Show. We were in just about every magazine in journal and newspaper out there and

16:42 All of a sudden we jump to a hundred and fifty chapters to 180 chapters, 220 teenage chapters and then covid happened and we said, you know what? Let's provide a virtual experience where every month sisters from around. The world can meet at the, they could meet virtually and that allowed us to open the 10th to so many more women who either didn't have the time to be in a chapter for whatever reason, didn't want to be in a chapter, but wanted to be involved and that just allowed us to reach so many more women in teenage, girl, which is where we're at today. And I think, you know, things happen for a reason. And, and us being able to adapt with covid, stats, flexibility of opening the tent, right? Of more people being able to participate, you know, geography was not an obstacle anymore. And, you know, there was a feeling of isolation.

17:42 It was difficult and, you know, actually rewind, what was going on. During the election time people were really leaning in and they wanted to be in a place where they could talk about their feelings and concerns about being. Otherwise. Do you know what the Muslim ban? This idea of, you know, I remember my mother saying she remember, I told you to store my mother said to my mother is born and raised in England and migrated to this country, but has lived most of her life in America now and after the Muslim and she said to me and my mother was a headscarf. And my mother said to me, I don't feel welcomed in America anymore. And so there was so many women who are going through this, you know, these feelings of just am I in a, you know, who am I? And I am I included in the cont in this country. Am I in an American and then all those acts of hate. Sure what happened in Pittsburgh, what was happening in around the country? It was it was very difficult time for, you know, many Jewish in in Wilson, families and others but particularly with our group, so

18:42 So hard to believe is when I called you it was after walking on that sacred ground in Oshkosh with never in a million years. Did I anticipate that would see the levels of hate toward Muslims at the level it is today and never ever, ever. Did I see, did I think I would see the levels of hate toward Jews is today and too close to where it was in the early 30s. Late 20s weight loss and people say never again. I don't believe never. Again. I do believe that things can be different than they were in the past, because now, there's people willing to write and speak out and peacefully act out. And I have no doubt.

19:36 That the woman in the teenage girls in The Sisterhood of salaam shalom.

19:41 Are within that group rising up and speaking out and they are doing it as we speak today, whether it's against acts of hate toward Muslims toward Jews blacks, lack of Justice toward blacks, lack of Justice toward Asian Americans, immigrants toward what's going on in Israel and Palestine. We are not sending back. We are speaking up because we all know it was like to be strangers. We would have to be recipients of hay, and there's a commitment that we're going to change it and God willing.

20:23 We are influencing so many others that we can change, that course of hay. And we won't have a repeat of History because people won't just sit back. There will be these what I call Warriors these women warriors who are peacefully going out there and saying we're not going to take it in peace, right way, it'll be able to go to Albania after having that experience of bringing the film to the unit of the local library. We we we travel together. We went to Bosnia and we we met with women who had lost their sons and husbands to genocide, we travel to Albania and met with the families. It was and it wasn't just what we were doing on these trips. It was the discussions in the bonding that we had with each other on these trips. And as you said, Cheryl this all started with that walk at Auschwitz or that trip to Auschwitz and then we were able to walk together.

21:23 In Auschwitz, right? Just a couple of years ago and bird the two of us walking together. And as I said, was they say we, we saw the painting each other's eyes.

21:42 Yeah, it is. And that's what The Sisterhood is all about. And that's what my dedication to you is all about. And I know, yours to me is to see everything in this world, through each other's eyes, not Through My Lens, but for me to look out and see it through your lens, that's what empathy is once. We are really

22:10 Accustomed to seeing everything through someone else's eyes.

22:16 That's how we make this world a better place. And there's not a doubt, our spouses, our parents, our children. Now do that, and they do that because of what they've been exposed to through US. Absolutely. And I think I have to say that's why I'm so grateful for that Cheryl. Don't you feel, you know, whether it's in our families or or people that we meet and I sometimes I feel like I'm a celebrity like it when our conference. Oh my God, you're the co-founder and sister going to be so nice to meet you and I think to myself I'm just like you is nothing different about me. And you know, I I feel so grateful that I advise. As I've said to you that I had the foresight to take the hand that you extended to me and and say, yes, we're going to do this together. This is important because what is our Legacy if we're not trying to make the world a better place and what what are we teaching our kids? What are we teaching that? You know, what are we living? Like, what ideals are we living? Ultimately?

23:16 Right here, right now. You're a hundred percent right in and I think back your kids were little.

23:24 I now have seven, grandchildren. The oldest are just about 12. I think maybe they were just or when I started The Sisterhood in, for sure that influenced me because I wanted them to be part of a better world with with less hate. And I look at it now and we've seen our kids and grandkids go from being infants and toddlers to teens and adults and parents have their own and read. And, and there's nothing that we really haven't shared together and it and it's incredible. And we shared his family's. If you had to think back, what would you say was the biggest challenge that you've had to face in The Sisterhood of Salam Salam?

24:14 I think besides just a personal challenges of time commitment. And I know Cheryl you were able to leave your full-time job and move into the role of executive director and be able to be doing this full-time. And unfortunately, I did not have the ability to do that. So, I think I had that personal challenge that I wanted to put more time and wanted to do more but I could only do so much and I and I know I hope, you know, you're walking away. You're always thinking that whenever you ask me, if I was there.

24:46 Spend more time with sometimes some of the details but I guess other challenges outside challenges are people who are detractors. People who were, you know, Debbie Downer as well. You know, it are you really doing is this just uses phrases? It's just a coffee Club, but even more seriously, I've had, you know, women come to me and say or you're selling out, you know, why are you meeting with people who support Israel? Why did you know? And I I'm like, oh my goodness. Let me, let's, let's start from the beginning. And I think that has that has been a challenge up and down, obviously, with the different escalation in violence, in the Middle East that Peaks and it received. But we've also changes in organization, right? We evolved as an organization and how we have dealt with particularly the issue of the Middle East. And we have said from the beginning, right? That the relationship between Muslims and Jews.

25:46 The 1400 your relationship or not only going to look at this relationship within the current political context of the Middle East, which is why our trips in. Our Focus has been on the many, many situations, historically, and even continue know in the Contemporary world or Muslims and Jews have been working together. So, you know, I think that has been a challenge. Do you find that to be a challenge to? I think that's been the biggest challenge from day one, just recruiting five other Jewish women besides myself and usually going in thinking. Oh my gosh, how am I going to just do by? They're all going to want everyone's going to want to be in it and

26:29 Friends who I thought we were friends and I really respected them saying. Are you kidding? I'm not going to be in a room and with with no way and to this day whether it's on different positions. We take the

26:52 The response that is sometimes very hurtful and very painful is a challenge, but I always step back and say, you know what? We're not trying to reach everyone. And as the person that was the executive director,, now retired from that position. We have a new wonderful executive director, but when I was executive director, I was always reminding. People not everyone has to accept what we say. If they want to be a part of it. We welcome them. You don't have to be in agreement with our position we're taking, but you do have to listen and respect it. And if you don't want to be a part of it, that's fine. The door's always open for you when you want to be part of it. Come in. And I think the challenge was explaining that to others within the organization and other leaders within the organization that we are not a one-size-fits-all for clothes.

27:52 Who are ready and and willing, we welcome you. For those that aren't we. Welcome. You when you're ready, and we are here to meet you when you are ready to be met and it was a challenge to realize very quickly, very early on within the first few weeks. This isn't for everyone and that's okay. Yeah, and I also know, you know, connected to that challenges, even just women who are, who don't find this to be something that is valuable to be engaging and you know, that I hate to call it. Seems so formal. It seems so removed. This is really just building relationships with women. Who you

28:34 Normally wouldn't meet in your, in your friends, circular, you know, and, you know, I feel bad about that. Sometimes as women who I think would be great participating. But, you know, they're busy with their own lives and their own Social Circle, their own family, and their own, which is you said, listen, this is not for everybody. Not everybody has a time. Maybe they can participate at some point in the future but I the women who I have met Cheryl Through The Sisterhood of all said that this is enrich their lives. They know. And I am just began grateful that you know that were part of that establishment, but I am so grateful that we may continue to do every single day. Say that this is enriching their lies and this is making a difference in their lives and an understanding that is is it's just actually very heart, you know warming, I think you absolutely.

29:28 Took the words out of my mouth. And the what's the the thing you are most proud of and it's that we literally have changed lives. And the story is that you and I hear every day. This has changed women, change them significantly and giving him a new home and in a purpose and most importantly, given them hope cuz it gives them hope that there's a better world out there. That's not full of hate. And as long as you have hope no one, no one to push you down. No one to take hope away from you. And so, we're allowing women to have hoping to hold on to that. And that's so critical. When I think about the research on The Sisterhood, we know what the woman involved, that it's changed their lives. They have. Hope they have new, meaning they abroad.

30:28 Their knowledge, but in addition to that, the research tells us that each woman in The Sisterhood in teenage girl 40 others out of The Sisterhood, the importance of Muslim Jewish relations about the impact of the sister to Salam Salam. And how'd this is the only way for the future to stop hate. So if we quickly do the math, let's say there's 8,000, total woman involved and girls * 40 numbers. So this this organization that started on a shoestring still. Basically we are always in need is has a very small staff and its Grassroots and it's really the volunteers that keep it going is literally changing the world reaching that many and I know.

31:27 Down the road in the future. We're going to reach so many more and I just can't wait to be on the ride with you to see a happen and it isn't it. Funny, when we have, we have our Christian sisters and other religious background come to us and they want to participate and we're like, listen, you know, there's a reason that this was established as Muslim and Jewish. First of all, you're Jewish, Muslim and where the co-founders, but because we share so many of those same struggles living in a majority Christian country where you know, our holidays are different, you know, we're not celebrating Christmas were everything. Shut down for a week. We have to take a day off for the holidays. We have to you know, our food are dietary restrictions or difference. Write our kids don't eat whatever else is eating in the lunch room, and we're not eating because of the holiday.

32:17 Yes, and then, you know, fasting and Andy know and say that, you know what, there's a reason why we have this is not like an abrahamic group or this is not, you know, one of those type of interface organizations that have you know, in a multi-faith, but we're very specific about the work that we're doing because we faced so many of the same challenges being probably equal or maybe just to the United States that we both have those challenges, right? And and why not come together even just on that platform of that we're working together, you know, and so I think there's so many reasons why it makes sense for us to get to know one another and to work together. And ultimately again to say no no to hate no to bigotry because it's affecting both of our communities. And affecting your community is affecting my community. Absolutely, one of the biggest commonalities.

33:15 According to Pew, research is the same people who hate Jews, hate Muslims and vice-versa. That's the commonality that started us doing this. We are not going to sit back and allow that hate to tear us apart, as Muslims and Jews and pull us apart. Nor are we going to let that stop us from continuing to practice the freedom that we're supposed to practice in this country, have solutely? And I recently had that with the challenge of the violence that just happened a couple months ago and we both have recommitted right at you. No, remember? We, after covid, we had met for some time and, you know, just meeting together, just wait a month or so ago. It was like, we met the first time in Starbucks, wasn't it? It was just like, oh my God.

34:16 And so it's just that spark is there. And I think that that is the spark that is has ignited, this organization, The Sisterhood and you and I were definitely going to be supporting in every way that we can and helping it grow. And let's see what, you know, tomorrow to write new people. And ultimately I think you find it or, you know, you could imagine organization and you wanted to eat as a baby. You want it to be in a grow up and I'm looking forward to seeing how, you know, it shapes in the future.

34:50 Me too. Me, too.

34:53 So, Laura Lori.