Bob Rorschach, Susan Rorschach, and Elizabeth Rorschach

00:02 Okay, my name is Betsy Ross Shaw. And today is January 7th of 2004. We're in Grand Central Station in New York City. And I'm interviewing my parents. I'm Susan Rorschach. I'm the mother Bob Rorschach. The father Star is Born.

00:23 I was born August 20th 1922 in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

00:29 We're at the what was then called Flower Hospital no longer in existence. He was on North Boulder. I believe that was Noah Morningside cuz I was born in Tulsa.

00:43 June 29th 1926 in Old Morningside Hospital which was moved South to South Tulsa and became Hillcrest and no became Morningside hospital and then became Hillcrest and it's a huge complex now started out looking like a small apartment house. So funny. What is your earliest memory?

01:08 I wrote that down one time because Janet asked me to question. My earliest memory is being in a darkened bedroom in a house on I believe it was North Denver I was trying

01:22 Brett Young

01:23 And I was trying to go to sleep in my crib and relatives were in the Next Room laughing and conversing and having a great time and I felt a little resentful because they were keeping me away. Am I I can remember when we lived in Oklahoma City and Mary Caroline was a baby. My sister was a baby and mother was swinging me in a swing in the backyard and I must have been about three years old.

01:50 I can remember now. What was it like growing up in the 20s and 30s did the Depression affect your families in any way you bet.

02:02 Yes, it made mother more aware she to this if she were still alive. She would be up in the in ketchup box to be sure. They're all the ketchup was drained out of it and it was pristine clean when she got through with it the the depression marked your daddy and me because we are very careful with money and very careful with what we do and don't spend too much cheaper cars at because we can remember people being out of work, but your parents know that over the years every every December 31st. My father would say next year is going to be a very tough year, but he was fortunate in that.

02:49 Before just before the depression he won a very large tax case for somebody and got a sizable fee which saw us through the depression and he was able to lend money to other people who were in trouble. So while we were careful, we never had any real significant worries that I know of it and he would on his trip to Washington and other places frequently big bring back things from Wanamaker's that place to get the mother and so on in Tulsa any of the effects of the depression. I didn't notice any of my friends are where we were living and we were certainly living in up in a modest neighborhood, but it was I did all of the men work and had jobs and so I can remember some children in my school by Grant My Grade School.

03:49 Probably

03:52 Or economic section of town who sometimes came to school Barefoot it.

04:00 And do you remember if the day the stock market crash and you were only three? How did the movie knowing? How did World War I affect your lies? I know you were in the service but accelerated by education. I graduated in January. I mean in February instead of June and it

04:29 I guess voluntarily because where I was working at Dupont, they tried to persuade me not to go in but I got I got the word from my draft board chairman here who was shop.

04:43 Mr. Helmerich senior in Tulsa to be drafted. So I quickly arranged for myself to be selectively inducted into the Navy. Why did you choose the Navy for a long time? I was always.

05:01 So you served for how many years from October 29th 1943 when I went to a midshipman school here in New York.

05:11 Two released in active duty, which was in I think July of 1946.

05:21 And you were posted in with at the South Pacific lot of the flowers posted to a ship which was just commissioned on the west coast in Richmond, California, and we sailed a lot of places in the Pacific and what what do you remember of that time?

05:43 Hand

05:46 There was a we were there at the time with almost time for the end of the war in Europe and a false alarm came through that that that ended in Europe. There was a lot of celebratory firing pusher.

06:04 And Surround came down on some of the ships and some of the senior officer float call day at air raid warning trying to get things calm down, but he failed to notify the ships that it was a drill as well there. We were hatches open lights on waiting for the Japanese place to come and and and in the confusion a neighboring ship drifted down on us and and there was a collision which

06:35 Damaged are proud slightly interrogation the side of his ship and he had to go back to San Francisco and we stayed there and when he got back to San Francisco, he he's the crewmembers spread the word allow weird. Random is the what was the name of your ship APA 222 incidentally. I just got an email from a from a crew member on our ship was in commission for 25 years or so after that commissioning and then they've been having reunions every year and I didn't know about it. So they're having a re you next year in in Grand Rapids Michigan, but apparently I can't go because of the date I was in high school and I can remember that Sunday afternoon when when Pearl Harbor was bombed and

07:29 High School remains same some of the boys left early didn't graduate. They would leave early enjoying some service and I can remember when I was in college. I went to a girls school up in Missouri and we would go to the various bases around they take bus loads of girls to dance with the boys dance with one from New York. And I mean he was something else he was here. He just couldn't get over the fact that he been posted in the middle of Missouri and there wasn't anything there. He felt like he was way out of his element, but I'm very nice and we we enjoyed that doing that. It was sort of interesting. We went down to chaperone came back chaperone on the bus. No fooling around so you both went to college and you both

08:29 Well mother pick the college's I went to that was that timing time and place I could go anywhere between the Mississippi and the Rockies.

08:41 Whichever whatever why I wanted to go to I can go to so I pick Stevens and remember why.

08:49 Well, it was well-known had had a good reputation and

08:56 I just I I liked it. I like what I heard about it. So that's why I chose Stevens and then when I came home, I went to the University of Tulsa graduated from there within a degree in a degree in English literature for a major and religion and something else for a minor. What was my other? I think it was Spanish for God's sake. I've been told not to speak it in public. So

09:21 Anyway, that's that's what I did. Well, I had originally been interested in Duke University when I was

09:30 High school and then a family friend who was older than I

09:38 I don't know which was I had a mighty started talkin about it. I heard it and and I was interested in chemical engineering.

09:46 And a mighty had the first Department of chemical engineering of this country and was very well known for it. So I decided I would I would try to go there an applied and was accepted. So I got my degree from there in chemical engineering.

10:04 And a master's degree in chemical engineering in 1950 and a master's degree in petroleum refining from T. Ua1947. It's before I married her to the next question is how did you two meet brought him over one evening for a visit when he was between

10:26 Out of the Navy and not quite out of the Navy and out of the Navy. So it was in June and I was just home from two years at Stevens and so they came over one evening to visit. So call Bob. I knew who he was but I didn't I didn't want once I came back to Central High School while I was in college and I met you in the hall, He was so much older than I

11:05 And still is and but anyway, that's that's the way we met and started started dating and and he was very credulous. So I had a good time with him this believe everything I said, what what was the dating experience? Like what kinds of dates he found out he was not to take me on the octopus at the equation at Crystal City because I got violently ill so that was it but we mostly with through the sorority things in the fraternity things in the college things and stuff because he was getting his master's while I was trying to finish up dances or and lots of dancers wealth.

11:55 We went one time to see the what was that thing with Joan Crawford, you know, what kind of hair pulling and crying and breastfeeding and stuff like that? So he wouldn't go to the movies with me and we're less he picked him out. But we did see The Bridge on the River Kwai. I know we saw Around the World in 80 Days a tee times.

12:26 Day of his travel, right?

12:30 So you met you got how soon after you get the official meeting. Did you get engaged? And what was that we were engaged in?

12:39 March wasn't it actually met in June and married in June and I'm missing you said you were engaged in 46 or 47 47 and married in two months later. You got Mario and so I'm headed to plan your wedding mother plan the way you do you remember your butt mother plan the wedding and well we work together with that of course, but it was it was a huge wedding. One thing about huge weddings is you don't ever want to ever do that again at once is enough.

13:25 So we had it in the church and had 600 people there and there was a

13:35 Pray do with a satin.

13:37 Kneeling bench. Where are we now call? Dr. Hill prayed interminably and we had to hang on to each other to keep from slipping off.

13:48 And I understand dress called my grandmother and grandfather became members also, so we're fine Generations their shop completed in 1917, I believe.

14:18 It just kept moving south. I think it started on about 2nd Street and go though. There were there were two previous churches. So we're one of those where one of the two couples that I know of in the church who were born and raised in that church and who married the well hours and are the only two couples that I know of amazing other people just moved away or they married from other churches or something like that, but we were both raised in there a picture of Mom in the Cradle roll.

14:56 4 years of age or something, but I've seen it. So, what was it like raising a family in the 50s and 60s you had six kids between 49 and 4:15 the day old bread store when we were on first-name basis with the emergency room crew.

15:15 Mmm, and the Milkman carry those big big cartons in on both shoulders and put them in two and a half of 2 and 1/2 go into the refrigerator.

15:26 So what other memories have you got from Hellraiser as far as the old neighbors and remember the Houstons that live next door to us? They said they'd like to sit out on their patio on Heather there six drinks while they're listening to us around the table cuz we always had such a good time. So we had lots of laughs. We had lots of laughs lots of fun. I can remember staying at the end of the table of one hand on the Bible in the other hand raised up. So I swear to your children. There's nothing in this casserole you would not otherwise eat.

15:57 The weather I guess but we had dinner together every night.

16:07 There was very few nights. We didn't have dinner together wasn't that much going on frequently had your grandparents over at all. So let's see Mary Carolyn in Stoneridge.

16:25 No, I get I kiss Grandma my grandmother and grandfather were dead by the time we moved to South Brighton Place.

16:38 So

16:40 I'm trying to think what else can you tell talk about? And I'm thinking of sort of the remember the night that serves a chili and and always put a bay leaf in it. I always took it out before I put it on the table. He said that night I forgot to and Tommy found the bay leaf, and he says what's that all five of the other five kids? What? What did you find?

17:09 I like I don't mean that. I Shepherd did Rob through to his Eagle Scout that the social in the all the stuff going on around what did the death rate of affect how you saw a family life or that it moved in from from City service and so on I'd love to party that that we would have these parties and and come home from them and then and walking down the street and great groups of the kids would come out for the houses and drag their parents in all out of the group to make sure they got the right place that we used to go around on Halloween with our neighbors and play trick or drink.

18:02 I was after the kids were in band Yes, right.

18:06 Favorite family Holiday Inn

18:09 Like we were growing up. We love to go out to Tulsa Country Club on 4th of July.

18:16 Yeah, we're Cross Island up to the lake on after the lake. Remember that that was mostly with six kids. We didn't travel too many places y'all ate too much for breakfast. We couldn't afford you but William A Mother's place up at the lake and then we had a trip to Colorado as you remember that one I think so, I think so one child to New Mexico so I can Colorado Vista we were there when you all walk down to the to the Village Lake we took rides around and stuff like that the sides of Colorado penis sponge baths in a Big Ten as we were traveling.

19:11 Campgrounds

19:15 Probably why you don't like camping today while we always had bad about the bad luck with camping. It always rained on us or something areas that will come and bring the RV in the kids and

19:32 I would say so.

19:37 Okay, so just moving to a bigger picture what changed now on you haven't been alive for all of the twentieth century. Put what social change in the time that you've been a lot around her been alive seems most dramatic to you.

19:52 You mean an invention? No, I'm thinking more of you know, the ways people live their lives or

20:02 Well, I think

20:04 The biggest change your is so many women work outside the home to me that has that has probably done it because

20:16 That that rearranges all your time schedule you don't you don't always have time to sit down together as a as a family for dinner and

20:29 I just I just feel like that.

20:32 That's good, you know which we were talking the other night, that's good because women don't have to put up with garbage that they don't need to put up with because they can support themselves, but it's bad in that it gives them an out when they

20:46 Really should be more responsible. Well, there's there's no man to air travel and the highway system with vastly improved cars where people are much more mobile than they ever were in our youngest years road down to

21:21 So

21:24 What else I think the television is probably done.

21:29 Adelphoi was it was good during the during the 60s when we were because we all had Ozzie and Harriet and and and The Brady Bunch and all of them to to sort of pattern Our Lives after but we don't have too much. Of course you have court what I would consider a good role model on the television when the best thing on television is Home and Garden Show busy. So how would you say that your lives are different from your parents lives?

22:05 Well, of course.

22:08 The technology of a lot of things has advanced there.

22:14 Things to things to do that and see that they they were able they didn't have or were they able to

22:23 My father used to spend a lot of time telling a stories. I doubt that that happens for a bunch of our kids watch television.

22:34 Stories about his life or just a story about two two boys named Fred and far every time he would finish with a cliffhanger and we will be waiting for the next part of it. Come on.

22:56 But he didn't write any of that down, huh?

23:02 Well, I think our lives are much easier than others. It's it's we have so many things to work with. However, we have to use those and then they used to clean how dry mother came to Oklahoma in a covered wagon in 1898 and

23:23 If you claim house at all you and clean cabinet all your clean twice a year. Now, you're at your house will be clean all the time because you have the equipment to do it with so it's up.

23:38 In that way, it's become more complex and easier to get it done.

23:46 It's it's a

23:48 But there was a lot more household help to be hired. Oh, yes. Yeah.

23:56 That's right. So I know if Alina work for Grandma and Grandpa and she lived in the the quarters or my parents always had usually had unfortunate experiences with people living in those quarters are smoked and this-that-and-the-other-thing an asshole very rarely kind of her more than one but prior to hear they had that they had a colored lady named Sedalia and he worked with her husband, and they had a son that he assisted in getting an education.

24:39 And what about Mom sampling? Yeah, she had from the time I can remember she had full-time help but and some of them lived with us and some of them didn't and

24:53 But they got Thursday afternoon and Sunday afternoon off and one of them she got a high school girl at that time. You could have some Andy and Helen was wonderful. She work she went to high school half a day and then she would come and help mother and I can remember taking walks with Helen and her uncle was a bus rider bus driver. So when he had our route we would go over and get on the bus and go clear to the end of the line and back and and just just really have a good time riding the bus and then she got Miranda who was wonderful in that was who was there when when Bob was there Miranda like to live in her own house, but if

25:38 If she needed more money should go work for the Goodman since you wish family that lived up around the corner from us and had four shared living quarters there, but she learned how to cook that wonderful Jewish food. So we would have been when she got tired of living in the court should call Mother and come back and work for mother and fix us all that stuff. It was wonderful. So we enjoyed Miranda and she was so funny shit when you're not have a friend staying should I come down and she said him and what is Prince Charming going to have for breakfast today? I'll have to tell you about living on North Cheyenne and Pine Street at the end of the street car lot.

26:14 That the streetcar line ended but a hill continued on down for another two or three box every once in awhile. The streetcar would run off the tracks and on down to the bottom of that at and we hit with a couple of my friends had a pop stand at the corner and we would sell pop to the to the streetcar drivers at and then later the streetcar was replaced by a bus line. So we sold to the bus drivers also.

26:45 So you've lived in Tulsa for nearly all your lives. What's your favorite area of Tulsa? When do you

26:55 Like going to your house, but other than my favorite area well

27:03 We have Swan Lake, which is lovely with those old homes around us.

27:08 And Mohawk Park, which is lovely. They're really doing a lot out there the next time you come. I'll have to take you out and see the zoo. It's amazing and

27:19 Pharrell Spa, well, I liked our our neighborhood there on South Norfolk with it with the workout in front of it since I spent a lot of time they're growing up there that we lived later on in the same house were quite a few years.

27:42 Neighbor wants while we drive around to see all the places. We used to live and you've traveled a lot. So where are all the places that you are favored, Sarasota?

27:56 2 places only two places that your Daddy has said we need to come back here. One of them is Switzerland. And the other one is Prince Edward Island and those two are I think our favorite places. However, Spain was wonderful and I would I'd like to go back to Spain. I don't know how Bob feels good. But but we've had some interesting experiences.

28:20 You were open and down the Eastern Mediterranean.

28:26 And we've had some some interesting experiences in Alaska and the Isle of Man wasn't that lovely in that Gatehouse was wonderful. Janet left just very nice. So we've had some end in England when you were there in Scotland for one of our grandchildren was born. So we've done well a lot more than mother. Did ya Mama and Daddy never got well mother wouldn't go because she had to have a passport. She wouldn't tell anybody how old she was didn't she go to

28:59 Scotland once who went with a laser light Hazel with her sister when she was very depressed. She live to be a hundred and six weeks and begrudged every minute because she told God she was not live until she was a hundred got even and he ignored her.

29:20 So I'm going to put dad on the spot now and I'm wondering if you can recite one of your Albert. I don't know anything well or just bits and pieces something one thing that I like very much. I'm going to have it done at my funeral come my friends tis not too late to seek a newer World push you off. Well in order Smite the sounding photos for my purpose holes to sail Beyond The Sunset in the past of all the Western Stars until I die. It may be the gulf's will wash it down. Maybe we should touch the happy Isles and see the great Achilles who win who do much is taken much abides and though we are not now that strength which in Old Days moved Earth and Heaven that which we are we are.

30:10 One equal temper of heroic Hearts made Weak by time and fate you're strong and will to strive to seek to find and not to yield music by Tennyson's Ulysses. That is its old age selling off to die as a hero.

30:40 I'm is there anything else that you want to say feel like we haven't covered or I can't think of anything. I'll probably think of things. Can I call you and

30:51 Oh, I got a we have five grandchildren who are all wonderful. We have Carolyn who is today don't know the ninth. This is the seventh sin the night. She will be 23 and we have Jay who is just passed his 21st birthday and Katherine will be 21 in.

31:15 April and Catherine said MIT. We're very pleased that we have their bomb. This is a third-generation and it might Katherine's father graduated in 1970.

31:28 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no 966

31:39 Okay 70. Alright Rob graduated from MIT in 1970. And Catherine's up there now and Bob graduated in 1943. So and then we have Louisa who is

31:56 14 going.on 25 and Daniel who is 8 and 1/2 and he lives in Tulsa. We have three grandchildren in. I guess or will until go somewhere else get old and go somewhere else, but

32:16 We have we've lived on how we will I have two children born in Boston and to born in Salt Lake City and to born in Tulsa. So and we've lived in Pryor Oklahoma and I like to tell the story that when we lived in Boston the Catholics were in the the majority when we lived in Salt Lake the Mormons were in the majority and we lived in Pryor the southern Baptists were in the majority and of the three honey don't live with the Southern Baptist.

32:51 And

32:53 I just did it did any of your children surprise you and and how they you know, what careers they picked her.

33:02 Where they are now.

33:06 No, I don't think so. We sort of let you go. I think and do what you wanted to do. I had too many to worry about things.

33:21 Pleasantly amazed at how well they all turned out, huh? Yeah. Yeah. That's that's nice. I think we're very lucky. I have a sister who lives in Tulsa. I don't know what I'll do if something happens to her because she's been a stalwart friend.

33:42 And she has one child who's the doctor and all of the kids turned out? Well. Let's let it run down the kids. Okay, Rob is a computer person in Seattle and has his own head. He does his own thing and he's on home and is a troubleshooter for a company out of Oakland and

34:07 Molly is living in Tulsa now, she's been divorced for a year and a half and is coming back around doing very well.

34:18 And her two kids are once graduated from college, and the other one is a junior in college this year. So we're graduating next year.

34:26 And Betsy lives in New York with Louisa and is doing very well.

34:34 And look for a house to buy one of the new apartment one is a new apartment and it was it was the prices were just exorbitant just things are in so she's going to stay where she is Barbara is a novelty Barbara. Betsy had Rob went for a doctor's degree got halfway through his dissertation and found out that somebody else is already written on that subject awake with Molly new all she needed to know when she graduated from the third grade. She went on to two years of college, but she knew how to get along in this world at the end of the third grade Betsy has a doctorate from New York University Barbara has a bachelor's from Tulsa University and a masters from Carnegie Mellon Carnegie Mellon in set design technical theater.

35:31 Tom is a banker. He had he graduate from OSU Oklahoma State.

35:40 A business a business degree. I didn't know he didn't get an MBA. He has a bachelor's degree from and Janet is Janet went to years to Mount Holyoke and to The Culinary Institute for two years and is now a chef in

35:59 Palm Springs, California, and it's doing very well enjoying that Barbara lives in Los Angeles and works for a

36:10 Industrial design place now in Bill sets for industry shows. So

36:22 And Molly has a golf handicap of five. She's been the Women's Club Championship two year two times before and just lately just wanted in August.

36:47 My best friend Bob not counting Bob.

36:55 Cuz you mentioned that more Carolyn before at Mercury wants at McDonald's real close.

37:01 This is probably where Carolyn probably marry Carolyn. I'm not sure I have anywhere. I got a lot of friends, but I don't have anybody that with the same relationship with that. Your mother has been don't.

37:19 I've got a good relationship going with with semi office neighbor.

37:27 Wait, where are of the same political persuasion? I was a member of my book club and he moved away but he is an inveterate newspaper Clipper and he sends his fellow a bushel of newspaper clippings about every week. Which she passes on me, but I guess

38:01 There's a final question. What what what religious beliefs do you hold and go to heaven?

38:12 Well if it exists, what do you hope God says well done.

38:25 Jealous, I'm a I'm a I'm a

38:30 Christian yes. I'm hopeful.

38:39 I'm not at all sure. What is going to be like that's something that's open for argument. Everybody has their own streets of gold but

38:49 It's I'm I'm taking a leaf out of that that ancient philosopher who says, you know, there might or might not be a heaven, but it you'll have a better life. If you live like there is then if it isn't it and if there's a heaven you'll make it and if you know is there isn't you will have had a good life anyway.

39:09 As I was sitting up, I've been a lifelong church member and that all kinds of things at the church and and I am certain certainly of the Disciples of Christ persuasion. I am I pretty much to to that Doctrine and I say I'm hopeful this really isn't a doctor noon last question in our last-minute. What's your favorite book?

39:39 Will it be just lately ex libris Lord of the Rings? I could probably think of some other time. I like a lot of it's just funny that anything by Willa Cather. I can read it and read it and read it the mystery books. I thoroughly enjoy so yeah, they pulled a bunch of people and they said Lord of the Rings was the best book of the 20th century and I don't know if I'm not at all sure. They haven't. Oh, yeah funny anything funny.