Stephen Watson and Daniel Horowitz

00:02 We are now recording.

00:05 Hello, my name is Daniel Horowitz Garcia. I am 50 years old for the next couple of days. Today is Monday. May 3rd. 2021. I am in Atlanta by partner. Today is Stephen Watson. He is my

00:21 Colleague. Comrade.

00:24 Contractor. My name is I am 43 years old. Today is Monday May 3rd. 2021. I'm in Atlanta Paulding County. Actually about Mystic. My partner is Daniel Horowitz Garcia. He is my friend and colleague Conrad all that other stuff.

00:52 Kohart, former cohort to wework.

01:07 I am currently a part-time instructor of history at Kennesaw State University. I've been there since 2015.

01:16 When what do you teach?

01:19 I teach us history. I longest time. I've been teaching what they called the survey course for free at five years. I taught the early u.s. History course, which is everything from the crossing of the Paleo Indians across the Bering Strait to reconstruction the end of reconstruction in 1877, and just recently, I started teaching other survey course, in US history, which is everything from 1877 to now. Which one do you like better? Well, I have my training is in early US history. I am. I got my masters from Georgia State and early US history. I, I wrote my thesis on the Jacksonian. Which is

02:13 Rock Lee before the Civil War. And so I have a fondness for that particular. Time. I grew up with the Ken Burns, Civil War documentary. That's really why I got me in the history out today. In the park just from being living around this area, North Metro Atlanta where so much Civil War stuff. And so I was kind of a civil war buff not really like a re-enactor or anything like that. But but yeah, I would say I'd prefer the US history, but I have come in recent.

02:52 Heinz to understand that the second half the, the, the later half of US, history is monumentally important. And I decided I needed to challenge myself by teaching. Course because it is even more important understanding, why we are whatever you want. And not something I tell my students. When they take my course, if you're going to learn why, everything that's happening is happening. And so part of that for my own personal Journey has been said start teaching out course, but so this order in answer to your question is I prefer that your early US History you got your undergrad at Kennesaw State, right and history and culture. I'm not sure if they still offer that degree because from what I understand, I think everything's being kind of just back. There's not even a distinction anymore between us and world history, which actually is.

03:52 Probably the way it should be right. The first time. I was in 1997, the Winter quarter in the wrong quarters back then, but I suffer from crippling social anxiety and I would register for classes and I would attend a few at the beginning of the semester, but then I would lose complete confidence in myself. And I felt like I didn't belong on a college campus now. Going. This happened a few times until I finally just dropped out around 1999.

04:34 And yeah, you know for the longest time just kind of told around and other Industries, grocery stores, hotels, video production and you know, nothing was taken orally. Obviously, not intellectually satisfying, but also just, I was not secure in any job that I had. I managed I managed to hotel.

05:01 I was I was the date back to the GM of the hotel and I didn't have health insurance and, and yeah, so stuff like that. Just kept happening. And then the 2008 crash happened when I was working at the video production company and my wife just said, you know, just go back to school, get your, get your degree. What do you want to do? And I and I thought, well, I'm off always been interested in history song. I'll Follow that. What? It takes to become a college history professor. And I just thought of following that path rather blindly as I found out a couple years down the road but so I'm I may have gotten off track from your original question. Yeah, it was still is that I start at KSU. Yes. I was a student. But it sounds like

05:52 The second time cuz I am the same way. Like, I was an eighteen-year-old College freshman 37 year old College, sophomore day was shot to hell. I had probably a 0.0 when I came back, but I'd only taken a few, and I taken a handful of classes and just stopped going to them. So, when I came back in 2008 started by taking a couple classes, but when I came back, I I really made the decision. I'm going to be, I'm going to excel at something for once, in my life. I'm going to be good. I'm going to, I'm going to take something seriously and so I did. And so now, I will admit being a 30 year old College sophomore. There is an inherent advantage in terms of

06:41 Just understanding what it takes to succeed at something like that. I got really early on that. Basically, you just show up a class, right? You do the required readings and you do the assignments that are assigned to you and you will at worst you'll walk away with a beat and then it just takes a little bit more effort to get to get to ask you a question.

07:05 What happens if you ask the professor questions, you've now jump from the beach when it's probably a lot of the other students, the wrong way. Because I was in my thirties sitting up front, very eager beaver type of student that way, and not an untried student asking questions, all the time and participating in discussion. I tried to have some self-awareness and not completely dominate every class. I was in, but I probably failed at that. But you know, nobody ever pulled me aside and said, stop it, you know, so I like whatever how do you think your experiences as a student in those two settings? Like a younger student? Ocean has prepared you to be a professor.

07:50 It has prepared you to teach.

07:52 I guess I have I have empathy for students who struggle right? And I try to win some semesters. I I remember to do tell the story up front of all of that struggle early on at the bottom. No hate when I was released when I was in this situation, back in the 90s, if

08:13 In case you had those resources, I didn't know about Friday in terms of mental health services and just Student Success services. So that stuff was there in the nineties. I didn't know about it. So basically, you know, if you are, if you feel like you do need help, don't hesitate to reach out and ask for help. If you need to ask me, I'm more than happy to point you in the direction of services that this University provides that can help you help you succeed.

08:48 Because this is,

08:51 I don't know the numbers, but I would guess that's all over a larger percentage of non-traditional students in class as well and started reaching out to people who feel like I'm just going to put my head down and plow through this, right? It's commendable to do that. So I try to I do try to sort of paint that experience and let that be something that connects me to all of my students as many as many students as possible. Anyway, look like

09:34 In terms of demographics in the baby, but how big is a class and how often do you meet? But typically buys my classes are anywhere between 30 and 50 students and sell. Most of the time. I'm in one of the rooms with sit-down desk every now and then I'll have one of those like Stadium sort of things where the the seats go up and you're looking up and kind of looks like what you thought College was going to be like when you were a kid watching movies, that happens every now and then but yes, it's actually my classes around 50 students.

10:18 And they just buy eyeballing. It. There are very few non Trad students that I see they they do tend to be more traditional ecology, change white there, but they're a healthy dose of male and female. But but yeah, that's that's what they look like, remind me in it. How many classes do you usually teachers? Mister?

10:46 Usually,

10:48 3. But that hasn't always been the case. And that's one of the things that that I talked about the other day on campus, at some. Some semesters, you, you hear enrollment is down, and you're only going to get one section, or two section, has been a situation where I thought I was going to have two or three classes in Spring 2019. And then on New Year's Eve, I was told that two of my classes were canceled because of lack of the moment, which was real good pipe, but usually, it is 3. So I want to get to you.

11:28 Does the stuff to change in a minute, but let's let's talk more about.

11:32 Why, why do it right? So late? What is it? What what do you love about teaching?

11:40 Well, I love the, it's funny how you. So, as a, as a part-timer. I'm not, I don't technically have, I don't have tenure right side. I technically don't have classic academic freedom. But so far here, in case you no one has ever told me what I can and can't teach them. So I have I have tons of freedom. In terms of what I am able to deem is important and needs to be learned and then and then demonstrated to me through assessment.

12:17 This isn't, this isn't like, this isn't like an industrial job where you have to clock in and you are, you know, you have to be crying yourself to dust until it's time to punch out when I, when I'm working. I decide what I'm writing a lecture, you know, I'm able to sort of like take a pause and look out my window and Ponder. The great questions that I'm trying to to get a tin in my lectures or when I'm reading my students writing, you know, I don't have to unite I don't have to work myself to do that. I can sort of take breaks what I need to. So there's there's tons of freedom in this particular job being a history. Professor. I just feel in in terms of

13:07 I guess I'm chauvinistic about this in terms of the humanities disciplines that, this is the most important one and I am answering for students. I'm answering the great question. I get, why are things the way they are? I feel privileged to be able to do that. So, well, when is things,

13:28 Every once in awhile, I do also a jump kit at KSU different apartment. What I love most about it is when the student stops and goes with what, right? So there's a lecture, I do when I'm talking about social construction, which is when I'm introduced on your studies gender. So love and sex people come in thinking, it's going to be one type of class and it's not that how you do a threesome. Like, that's not at all. What this class is about, right? For the way. I teach the class when I was, you know, when they offered me, the class what they wanted me to do, was to talk about it.

14:23 Sorry what they offer me to class what they wanted me to do was talk about it as a history of gender.

14:30 And I mean I can't talk about race, right? So it starts as bits and stuff and I was like, well, okay. Let's read this part. Now in its 18th century Barbados and if you're black you're not a woman. So there's actually four different genders and they're like, wait, what we talked about the social construction of slavery, and I have this whole thing where I can ask people about their pets, like, would you take a bullet for you. We take a bullet for your cat, you know, and then from where it's like, can you bring your cat into a hospital but why not? And I was like what? You can't? You can't just replace pet with enslave black person. And now you understand what? And expect this moment or this. Holy crap, that's me is with the with the issue of slavery.

15:30 What I said that, that human beings were property. They were legally property. Right? And that was something that has as a young student. She was she was a white woman and that did not right. I would imagine she, I think she grew up in this area public schools in the area. I mean, you know, I was taught that the Civil War was about slavery. Believe it or not, but we didn't get in-depth I guess about just how brutal and dehumanizing slavery was and maybe that has changed in a generation but I was taken aback that somebody would not understand that but it made me realize like I'll just have something I need to stress from now on because because a lot of people don't you think that, right?

16:29 For sure can be really good. Right? I mean it's not so much Melissa. Like it's it's a, it's a three-credit course. The number of students to teacher going to be almost like probably three to five. I would say per semester in those who come to me. I tell them I should have like, give them the the Scared Straight speech about what it would take to become a professor in Eau Claire.

17:09 Yeah, so if this is like the the one opportunity that you get to reach like going to court normies, right?

17:21 A lot of a lot of the people who hear your message. You're just going to either reject it out of hand or they look at it as just something that they have to get through. And it might not sync in with them. But I think there's a good numbers being switched. Dustin requirements are that are put in place for me. Yeah. That the big idea that I want them walking home. Is that racism the biggest

18:01 Products that the United States has created, and it's the biggest problem.

18:08 Where is the biggest biggest problem? What?

18:11 Do we have to go to top hits?

18:16 Yeah, I think the other part that I also want students to know is that it can change.

18:22 You know, like just because it's feels totalizing. Well, it is totally, but that doesn't mean it's forever stagnant, right? Things change all the time. If it didn't, there would be no history.

18:37 So that that exists. Okay. So if that's the big thing, that's the main thing and that's what you love about the job. Then what's a, what's a good day? Look like that.

18:54 Well, let's go back to when I was on campus to him face-to-face. Cuz lately, yeah, thanks just have not been typical since I transition to online, but when I was in face-to-face, I usually get the campus around 8:30, to 9. I go into the part-time, faculty office. I log onto a computer in there and I go through and check if they're in the emails from overnight students, reach out to me about the Watson. I need this and that to try to answer those emails quickly as I can, and then talk with colleagues in the part-time faculty office. About, you know, how their semester is going Heather day is going and then sort of get myself into a place where I'm Center. Oh, I forgot. This is kind of despite becoming friends, but this is something I do. Every time I get on campus, I did this the other day. I was there for the

19:54 Work I speak out when I when I come out and I'm walking to the social science building. I try to send her myself because I feel like you know when you're dealing with potentially volatile topics, things can kind of, you know, you might get a student who was like, I think you're full of shit. Right? That hasn't really happened. But I'm always like that could happen. Right? And so, you know, I try to make sure that I am in a place where it can I might be able to be able to deal with that right in a in a measured way. And so I like to sort of

20:36 Take a breath and say don't be arrogant. Don't be ignorant right? Remember your training and remember that the students that you're dealing with there. They're depending on you to deliver to deliver the these important pieces knowledge to the right. So I do like make sure I mean I'm maintaining us a centered state of being. I I don't know. I don't know what better way to describe and then I get ready to go to my first class. I go down. I'm usually ready to go with like 5 minutes to go before class time. And then I start, I usually start giving

21:25 Announcements with about thirty seconds to get. I'm, I'm very punctual. I like a robot. I'm very, very punctual. I start invite my, my policy with, which everyone has launched into my lecture, with 30 seconds to go before the time is supposed to start like that. I start doing announcements so that we can sort of like he's into things. But basically like I tell everyone, if you're on time, you're late, right? Like you need to be in your desk, you need to have your whatever utensils. Or if you do hop top tablet, whatever ready to go ride. And yes open the. I just launch into my first section and then because I teach every semester, I teach the same the same course that I just repeat that two more times. I threw out the rest of the day by the end of my last class. I walked out to my car and I drive home, right? And on a really, really good day.

22:25 In my car and I'm kind of like sweating profusely sweating, but I've got a little bit of sweat because I'm five like just really gotten into the material that that I'm giving. And there's been like this, this like really organic connection between me and the students and I was just like a really good day where I felt like I knocked it out of the park.

22:49 That's usually what but a typical day on campus is like, and then when I'm preparing my lectures, when I get up in the morning, get my kids to school. And then I basically, I just spend spend the day.

23:04 Answering certain questions throughout the day and also just doing research on the, on the topics that I'm lecturing on. I like to update my lectures all the time because there may be something out there that I missed and I don't want to look a fool. And so, yeah, I'm usually going over and over my lectures in preparation for the ones that are coming up about how many hours a week. Do you think you spend on each car, not counting like the teach the actual teaching, but if I'm not actually teaching, I mean

23:43 So, usually here at the house on what Tuesday and Thursday and I put in full days then like 8-hour days.

23:54 I might put in a few hours here and there on the weekends. But yeah, so at home, I'm usually working 16 hours at home. You have you started?

24:08 It's rough to get at to get a phone number, but I'm, I'm usually putting in 48 hours cuz, you know, when I get home then I'm braiding online discussions on grading. I used to do quizizz. I'm grading quizzes. So I did a few hours of work when I get home from from KSU campus as well. But yeah, I'm usually putting it 40 hours a week. It's a full-time job, but part-time wages.

24:34 I have I have been screaming this for years and it is it is a full-time job. I don't see how anyone can can do this.

24:46 You know, less than 10 hours a week, which if you teach one section, you're supposed to answer some of my 8.75 hours or 8.25 hours into this dreaded timesheets. I was talking about the other day. Yeah, I don't see how you can do it part-time.

25:03 So, what is if you could change one thing, just one thing about about your job? What would you change?

25:13 About my performance of it or the expectation about your job about my job.

25:23 I guess these two things are tied together, but just

25:27 Well, I think that the compensation would follow this right? But again, that perception that part-timers are less than full-timers. We may not add the same Prestige to the university to any University or any institution that full-timers. Teach at I'll freely admit. I haven't published anything since I earned my Master's long time ago, right, but I've been working, I've been working on this course, but so yeah the perception that that part-time instructor

26:04 Just aren't as good as full-time tenured. Professor, really work on that perception. Like, who you talk about?

26:18 Administration other full-time tenured professors.

26:26 And what it is. It's not the students. The students have the students have no idea. How can I put the address me as Professor? Even though I'm technically not supposed to be. I think, I think the funniest thing about the Rachel dolezal Saga was, I read somewhere that they were full-time professors, who were upset that she was referring to herself as Professor to Augusta and instructor and it's like really. That's the problem is that you have Rachel dolezal. Say, yeah, it's yeah, I think it's it's the perception by ministration buy USG, those folks USGS university university system. So how would you know that perception has changed?

27:13 How do how would I know? Well, I think that when

27:17 When compensation when we are when we are paid living wages and given health insurance coverage. Yeah, I think so. I mean it would it would be great if if walking down the hallway every full-time tenured professor that I saw addressed me as as Professor, you know, that that that to me is not is not necessarily.

27:46 Yeah, that that wouldn't even be the end of it. Right? The Daquan quote recognition. That we are full-time workers it to me. Yeah, it's about. It's about the material reality. Are we?

28:02 Are we compensated for our labor early that to me is, is where I will say. Yes. We are now recognized as legitimate.

28:17 There's a thing. I've been on lately, like with covid-19 on their door that says, you can't be in here without a mask. Then that means that people who don't wear masks should be inside. But what it does mean is, the best option would be, do what you said, but if you're not going to do what you say, at least like, say the stuff that you actually do, right? So I don't feel like

28:57 We're contractors. You know what? We have enough part-time. Like part time, work is different than

29:05 So they should either stay where contract work or for part-time, will part-time now? Quit that opens up to the damn thing about like but even his contract like it's the pay is is just too low.

29:16 Yeah, well, okay. Yeah, I mean we are we're told that we are contract workers. That's that's actually a bite that came up in the union. When we were debating, how we should respond to this thousand-dollar bonus issue right into me. I don't understand how that means, then we because we're contract workers that we don't know that we don't deserve ride in Uber drivers of contract workers. And I don't think that's right. So I will, I will stand up for their rights as well. So I don't see how that excuse is our exploitation and our dear ocean of our security and dignity. Like I say that because

30:16 Speaking from personal experience, right? I my wife is a full-time teacher. So we have, we have good health insurance and all that, all that stuff. But give God forbid, something happened. Then things would be, things would be much much different, right? But I can't imagine how many, how many other part-time faculty members. There are who don't have that and are in a really horrible place right now, and I'm trying to to reach out to them and say and say join us because this is a fight that we, that it's past time that we take on. Let's go. Let's just go talk about. Why are you here?

31:06 Why are union AKs you? Well, I just I believe that.

31:13 Our labor is our power.

31:16 Is one of the only sources of power that we have and that power can only be used when it is done. Collectively. It's funny. You mentioned about contract work as an individual. I don't even know where I would go to negotiate when I'm close. My next contract, right? I don't know who I would turn to this. I don't know who I would. Go to say, you know, I've I've done this in the past and I'm capable of doing this in the future there. For I'm, I feel like I'm in a ditch, right? Hiring agent going to go, she ate negotiate that for me. So we are isolated and alienated. And the union is an interest that is going to say we need we have to come together to improve these conditions.

32:10 It's a who's who's in the lead?

32:14 Would you open till I get all workers on campus at Kennesaw State that and that is members of The Faculty as members of Staff that's also students and you know, graduate assistants. We we take all comers.

32:35 So it's what's in the Union? In Union work is a wall to wall.

32:42 So and as historians perfectly, you know, I'm a labor Astoria. It's a, it's an industrial countries. Have the union is just professors. Just why, why do this instead? I'm at a point in the, in my participation here where I'm I'm kind of

33:10 I don't know the answer that question just yet because I feel like there.

33:15 We're going to be more effective when a supermajority of all campus workers join. But in the meantime, as we are growing, we going to find out that we do have these different segments that do have separate interest and we're going to have to, we're going to have to come together to figure out a way to overcome all those differences over, so that we can become a stronger Collective Force, but I guess I'll just leave the best the best answer I can think of now near your question is

33:51 This just won't work. If it's only just a union of part-time, faculty members, who who will say, you know, if our interests are Matt and will withhold on our labor, right?

34:07 University system of Georgia Board of Regents, the state government of Georgia. They can. All figure out ways around around us as part-time faculty members to keep the University running. But if we have as all campus workers come together and say, this must change.

34:28 Those entities that I mentioned earlier are much more likely to listen to us.

34:34 But really, it's about power. We have more power together than we do for all separated. Whether we're separated, as individuals, or even were just separated by job. Like, it's very like early night, early 20th century, like one big Union have a feel for it.

34:56 But it's also really like it's just be quiet. I don't see any anymore. Part-time faculty members. We need more staff. We we need right now that the union is chock-full of full-time faculty members and and the meetings are chock-full of full-time faculty member concerns, which have to be addressed. Yes, but we definitely need more more of those other folks.

35:30 Every student student. Well, we know who we have to talk to her.

35:45 You know, I'm still kind of building the list. Kind of go from there. It's a very what?

35:52 I mean Saul Alinsky was a kind of like a quote on quote famous organizer deeply problematic, but he does have this way of putting most of the work is just at what's like act 2 and play, you know, like it's not the exciting part, It's A build-up habits.

36:14 Campus the other day. The opening statement of the part-time faculty committee for faculty to teach part-time and it felt great. I was glad to do it but it does feel like basically at what I look at that as like I set up a firecracker. I was like really feels like most of the work is not going to be that I have to work is going to be in getting getting out of the house and getting you. No different departments to cut to come do. I seem so we can check us out. Come join us. We're fighting for you. That's that's where the work is going to be at work is going to be in the organization. Not the not the

37:02 What was that speech? You wrote a thing? I understand but I call it an opening statement from the committee for faculty who teach part-time and basically myself in the co-chair of this committee. We sat down and we put together our thoughts and what we felt like are the top priorities that this committee should address. Those priorities include living wage compensation health, insurance coverage doing away with the ACA timesheets, which I don't know if there's time to explain what that is, but is that the way that we record our hours are witches up at Broad.

37:53 We are we are we are required to to commit fraud. Play. Next time like we are every month. We are required to record the hours that we work on the online. Timesheets. We refer to them as Affordable Care. Act's timesheets. I'm not sure what they're actually called. But so let's say you're like me and you are teaching three courses.

38:33 There's this calculus that has been worked out that where I believe it's the university system of Georgia, has put together the number of hours that would include Lector prep student engagement grading, and then M Class actual in class activity. And so if you teach three sections, you supposedly only work 24.75 hours a week and tell you you have to go on to you have to log on to this payroll timesheet thing and you have too many other like in your head figure out. Okay. What did I work on Monday? Tuesday? What, you know, and you do this for an entire calendar month?

39:20 This was this was started in 2017. And when this started, I don't know about other departments, but I was I was we were told by our department chair that if we entered more hours than is mandated for us. That could affect future consideration for being for being scheduled for class. So if you if you basically so again, you I said, I work upwards of 40 hours a week on this. If I put in that I work 40 hours every week in the month of May. I went get fired right away, but it would affect their consideration of putting me on the schedule in Fall 2021 brain, 2022 and onward.

40:16 And so I didn't know what else do I have to say about this? Yeah. So basically we are required. So they take these time sheets. This is what we forbade. They take these time sheets and they use this as the justification to deny us HealthCare coverage because we are submitting these records dutifully every month to say that. No, in fact, we are not full-time workers.

40:44 So yeah, so that's something that I brought up the other colleagues Through The Years, other folks are frustrated about it. Otherwise just see it as something that we have to do this part of the job. But I worked. I worked at Randstad the temp stat staffing agency, which is headquartered here in Atlanta for a couple years are the Department's I worked out when I was there was a screening compliance and one of the issues that they dealt with his granny compliance with folks. Who were

41:21 Who were entering hours in order to get paid more falsely? I don't know how to word it very poorly but you get what I'm saying, if an employee quits in that they worked 40 hours. When it. The only work 36 hours or whatever to get fired that you fired immediately because that's brought.

41:45 Well, I don't see how this is any different that I'm entering hours that I did not work. I'm entering into a number of hours that I did work. But I work way more hours that I'm entering every week been committing fraud on the behalf of my employer and this does not seem to raise any alarms belt. I think that's the kind of thing. That is if

42:08 Some media Outlet in, I don't know where, you know, AJ cwsp, if they found out about it. Maybe they already do know, they don't care. It's very possible. But it just seems like it would be a pretty big story to say the least. Tired of I'm tired of committing fraud. So anyway, does that answer your question, brother? So, all of that song on the opening statements, I read a condensed version of it to the other union members that we're at the workers speak out and a few random students passing by who seems puzzled as to what the hell was going on. But again, it felt good, but I'm learning. I'm running on the fly, but I'm learning that is not going to be all of the work.

43:07 Well, thanks for being with me here today.

43:11 Thank you.

43:14 Did you have anything else Daniel? I didn't mean to take up the last.

43:18 But a time might haven't even explain that about fraud.