Tim Havis and David Havis

[00:02] TIM HAVIS: Hi. My name is Tim Haveis. I am 33 years old. It's October 15, 2023, and we are in St. Louis, Missouri. I am here talking with my father.

[00:13] DAVID HAVIS: David and my name is David Havis I am 70 years old. It is October 15, 2023. We're in the great town of St. Louis, Missouri. The person that I'm interviewing is my younger son, Timothy John Havis and I am his father.

[00:34] TIM HAVIS: Do you want to ask the first question? I'm kind of curious about what your questions are that you came up with this morning.

[00:42] DAVID HAVIS: I'm gonna start if you're cool with that. Yeah, I'm gonna start with. One of my favorite childhood stories from you was the ceiling fan incident at your childhood's best friend's house. And I was wondering how much of that story that you might like to share.

[01:03] TIM HAVIS: What I remember from that story was or that time. I don't think there was a single adult in the house when we were there, which was pretty typical. And we were taking all of her stuffed animals and putting them on the ceiling fan. She had, like that. Were you ever in their house?

[01:22] DAVID HAVIS: I think I was in. No, I don't think I was in their house.

[01:24] TIM HAVIS: I don't ever remember seeing you guys in there. But they had a balcony overlooking. From the second floor, overlooking the living room. And we would, for whatever reason. Cause we were children and little odd, put the animals on that ceiling fan. And then we would go over to the light switch, and we would turn the ceiling fan on, and the animals would slowly spin and spin and spin and spin until they, like, fell off down, you know, a floor into the living room. And the. It went awry because I took one and put it on there. But I reached a little bit too far and, like, fell off the entire thing. And, like, I think I hit the coffee table, which is, like, a large coffee table there. And I, like, fell off that, in between that and the couch. And I just remember looking up, and Emily had come down the stairs and was like, are you okay? And I, like, couldn't talk. I don't know. I felt like the wind had been knocked out of me or something. And she went and got me a green. Speaking of favorite colors. Went and got me a green lime green band aid. Cause I had cut my knee open. And she thought that that was gonna solve everything, and it didn't. I was a little delirious for a second, and I don't know what happened after that. What did you hear? How did you hear about it? Or did you ever hear about it.

[02:43] DAVID HAVIS: Until I think I heard about it later. But then I thought, y'all, it didn't take long for you to resume your normal activities of going back up there.

[02:51] TIM HAVIS: Yeah, I don't remember it lasting too long and then just continuing with the chaos. Cause we would be running around that house and playing with the parrot whose name was actually Paco or Chester the dog. One of those two would be around with us. That's my memory of that. And I'm kind of surprised you guys let me go back over there again.

[03:15] DAVID HAVIS: And how old were you when that happened?

[03:19] TIM HAVIS: I have no idea.

[03:20] DAVID HAVIS: Okay.

[03:21] TIM HAVIS: I think certainly preschool, pre. Really? I was gonna say single digits for sure. Hopefully. I don't know. Maybe that explains some things falling from the first floor. I'm not sure, but I don't remember hitting my head. I remember my knee being the issue, but it might explain some other things. Yeah. I don't know how old I was, though.

[03:44] DAVID HAVIS: Well, that's certainly one of the favorite family stories that we often remind ourselves of.

[03:51] TIM HAVIS: We live to tell the tale.

[03:52] DAVID HAVIS: Yes. Because you survived. So, do you have a question for.

[03:58] TIM HAVIS: Me I want to know. Well, all of the bolded questions are questions. I want to know, so maybe we'll have to get to some of those later. But who was the biggest influence in your life? And what lessons did that person or those people teach you?

[04:13] DAVID HAVIS: Hmm. That's a very good question. The biggest influence in my life.

[04:19] TIM HAVIS: Or maybe a larger influence.

[04:21] DAVID HAVIS: Larger influence.

[04:22] TIM HAVIS: It doesn't have to be the singular person or thing.

[04:25] DAVID HAVIS: You know, I'm going to jump outside the family realm to a high school teacher who taught social studies. My senior year in high school, she was just doing her typical I got to do my three months of whatever in service training for her teaching degree, and she taught social studies at my high school, and the only thing she taught was civil rights movement. She did not go by the book. She did not go by any structured thing or any curriculum that the school had designed. She was Martin Luther King, Reverend Abernathy, all of those key people. That is all she taught about. And growing up in Texas, I was exposed to a lot of racism. And so she completely flipped the coin for me and helped me see what was going on with our white privilege at that time. And I thought it was odd because she was not asked to come back to that high school and teach, but she just really turned things around and kind of lifted the window, spreaded the curtains from my point of view and from what I had been taught, because when I grew up, there was a black side of town, and there was a white side of town where my grandparents lived. And it was so obvious and so degrading some of the comments that were made back then. But, gosh, this teacher just completely made I have a dream a reality in that classroom. And in an all white high school. We had maybe three African Americans, two Mexican Americans in that whole school. And it was just a very good eye opener inside my soul about why we are prejudiced. And you don't have to be that way anymore.

[06:30] TIM HAVIS: So what was her name?

[06:33] DAVID HAVIS: Gosh, that's a very good question. I want to say Eileen was her first name, but when I went look back in my high school annual, she wasn't even pictured as a teacher because she was just there as a student teacher, so they didn't take her picture. So that was one of the bigger influences in my high school years.

[06:55] TIM HAVIS: And so, like, I'm curious, did she, like, talk? Did she bring much politics into it? Or was she just teaching, like, history? Because when I would talk about that stuff in my classroom, I knew that I had 1ft out the door, and I was like, I'm gonna say whatever the fuck I want, and, like, I'm gonna share my opinions on things. Did she talk? Did she get into that sort of, like, subjectivity and talk about her opinions of what was going on, or was it pretty factual? Like, I don't know.

[07:30] DAVID HAVIS: You know, the New York Times has a book, I think it's 1862.

[07:35] TIM HAVIS: Oh, 1619 project.

[07:37] DAVID HAVIS: 1619 project. There you go. And it was like she was walking into that room in 1971 with that book. Besides all of the civil rights stuff, I mean, she had pictures of Life magazine and some of the other pictures that were taken during the civil rights movement. And she just. I don't think she really cared too much that if she was going to be a teacher in that school or not. But she had more of a drive to push that subject and change our minds than she did about. I don't know if this is going to hurt or help my teaching career, but she was certainly fresh. She was 22 and young and just energetic and had a real passion about this is wrong. The way we've been treating these people is wrong. You don't need to have white restrooms and black restrooms. You don't need to have segregated busing. You don't need to have anybody that color come to the back of your house and ask for food, which is what happened at my mom's house several times.

[08:50] TIM HAVIS: What? What?

[08:52] DAVID HAVIS: Well, if my understanding back then is that if a black person or an African American was hungry and wanted food, they could not come to the front of a white person's house. They had to come to the back of the person's house and knock on the door and ask for food. And my mom did that several times, even though back then she was fairly prejudiced. She has come around a long way since then. But that was just one of the customs back then. That was, my grandfather would not allow more than three african american children in his country store at a time, you know, and the others had to wait outside until, you know, one of the three left and then another one could come in. It was just, it was just a setting in very rural Texas back then, in a farm town community.

[09:48] TIM HAVIS: Yeah, I think it's hard for me to even, like, think of that. When I asked that question. I was like, well, wait a second, this was like, that was the norm back then. It's almost like me living while the defense of Marriage act was overturned, but up until then, it was like gay marriage wasn't a thing. And so I guess I'm looking at her teaching that topic through the lens of, like, right now, where it's like, it is something that we've been talking about for a while, but they didn't have that time and space of like, well, this is what happened back in the sixties, because it was the sixties then. I don't know, it's hard for me to shift that kind of perspective. So I just didn't know how old she was or if she had gotten fired. And it sounds like maybe it was a little bit controversial that she taught that stuff or presented it the way she did.

[10:46] DAVID HAVIS: Well, and her coming from a very conservative college in town, nice college, well known, but it's probably the limited african american people there at that time too. So she really, she really stepped out there, so to speak, in that.

[11:06] TIM HAVIS: So I want to hear more about your grandparents. When you were saying about the store, is that Granny's parents or Gene's parents?

[11:18] DAVID HAVIS: That would be Granny Ruth's parents. He, her dad owned a country store in a small farming town in Bynum, Texas.

[11:31] TIM HAVIS: Okay. The best water in Texas, right?

[11:34] DAVID HAVIS: The best water to get gallstones from. Yes.

[11:37] TIM HAVIS: Yikes. So that's where it comes from, our bynum blood. Good to know.

[11:42] DAVID HAVIS: Yes, that's true. That's true. He was a lay preacher in the lutheran church, a strong lay preacher, but his country store had hardware. It was like going to an ace hardware store in a snooks combined kind of deal back then he did barbecue chicken every day in that store. He had a big rotisserie right in front of the store. So you couldn't walk in that store without getting consumed by the barbecue chicken that was grilling. And he had his own butcher block. He did his own butchering there and under the counter. Sold all of the vices, cigarettes. He couldn't sell alcohol there because that was a dry county. You had to go a few miles down the road to get your hard liquor.

[12:39] TIM HAVIS: Did he bootleg at all?

[12:41] DAVID HAVIS: Oh, yeah. He made his own beer in the back.

[12:43] TIM HAVIS: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[12:44] DAVID HAVIS: You could smell. I think that's the reason he did his chickens, to cover the smell of the bread. Brewing beer in the back. He would brew a crock, a five gallon crock of beer.

[12:56] TIM HAVIS: Oh, my gosh.

[12:57] DAVID HAVIS: Just about every Monday he would start that process. And he had his own bottles and had his own capper.

[13:04] TIM HAVIS: Oh, my gosh.

[13:05] DAVID HAVIS: And it was pretty good.

[13:07] TIM HAVIS: I was going to say, did you taste something?

[13:10] DAVID HAVIS: It wasn't bad for home brew. It really wasn't bad. He had a really good recipe.

[13:16] TIM HAVIS: Well, I just saw a photo of you. I don't know which house it is in Texas, because I've been trying. There were two. Right. Cornwall Bridge and what was the other house? Oh, in Texas that you had? When we were kids, we had Cornwall.

[13:32] DAVID HAVIS: Bridge and we had lime springs. Yes, lime Springs.

[13:36] TIM HAVIS: Okay.

[13:36] DAVID HAVIS: Yes. Another color. Lime springs.

[13:39] TIM HAVIS: Yeah. There was a. There's a big ass grill and one of those backyards, like a barrel like grill. Charcoal grill with a big pipe coming out the top of it. Like a. Looks like almost a commercial charcoal grill. Is that yours? You're standing behind it. It's like a fenced in backyard with like a deck and a pergola, maybe.

[14:02] DAVID HAVIS: Okay. That was the lime Springs house.

[14:04] TIM HAVIS: That house looked nice.

[14:06] DAVID HAVIS: That was a nice house.

[14:06] TIM HAVIS: Was that the second house you guys had?

[14:08] DAVID HAVIS: That was the second house we had. We were only there from 1990 to 1992. We only stayed two years in that house.

[14:16] TIM HAVIS: Okay. And one of those houses looked to me like the house in Glencarbon, where you, like, walked in. And there was that. I guess that's probably most houses, but there's like an entryway and there was a closet with some mirrors on it. And then it opened up into, like, a big living room. And then that shelf that grace was telling me about how Joe used to throw the ball over that shelf and get in trouble all the time. But who was. Was he throwing it to anyone or was he just throwing it over the shelf?

[14:49] DAVID HAVIS: It was probably just Joe practicing his basketball shots. Okay.

[14:53] TIM HAVIS: Okay. Well, I thought that house reminded me. Did you guys design the fucking gaslight lane?

[15:02] DAVID HAVIS: No, we didn't. That house was under construction. We did. We just saw the studs of that house when we came up, and the guy showed us the floor plan. And so it had five bedrooms in the jacuzzi bath, which. In a huge kitchen, which sold mom really quick.

[15:19] TIM HAVIS: Well, I thought, it looks. That shelf in the kitchen of whatever, Cornwall or lime springs. I was like, that must have been why they put that big, huge shelf on the wall. That's what that reminded me of. And the cutouts and sort of the weird angles. Looked like you guys kind of tried to copycat that house up here, but that's kind of. I didn't think that was going to be your answer, that it was just like something. It was a house that was being built, and you guys, I thought you had, like, designed it that way.

[15:47] DAVID HAVIS: No, we looked at three houses, and that was the only house that was unfinished. And it ended up being in just close enough to the school district we wanted to be in. And so we just took a gamble and said, that's the one we want. We had a week to make up our mind, came up here to find a house before we moved.

[16:08] TIM HAVIS: So, yeah, I guess it is right on the edge, because, like, that other family on the other side of the Tallman's, they went to a different school district. They went to Maryville.

[16:20] DAVID HAVIS: Yeah. It was stiff.

[16:22] TIM HAVIS: Yeah. I keep asking questions, so if you want to ask a question.

[16:27] DAVID HAVIS: I do. I have a question I wanted to ask you. Let's see. This was this question. I wrote it down, but I can't find it, so I'm gonna.

[16:43] TIM HAVIS: You can take a second to look for it. I'm fine with that. No, I think they're fine with that, too.

[16:46] DAVID HAVIS: Yeah.

[16:47] TIM HAVIS: Yeah.

[16:47] DAVID HAVIS: So I want to go back to the day that you came out and told me that you were gay. And I. I don't know how much of that conversation you remember, but I was at a bluegrass festival in Arkansas with one of my friends, and a really good van was fixing to come on, you know, that we had waited to see. And then you made a. The phone call came through, and I could tell by your voice, like, you know, this is something I really. Hey, can I call you back in 2 hours?

[17:21] TIM HAVIS: Yeah. Yeah.

[17:22] DAVID HAVIS: It wasn't one of those tone of voices. And so I was just wondering how much of that conversation you remembered, and then I can share some of my memory about that, too.

[17:33] TIM HAVIS: Yeah, I don't. I remember I was in the car on the way back from. I was leaving U of I and going back to Milliken for. I don't know why. I was at U of I, though. I was probably visiting some people from Edwardsville, because there are a few people there that went to college, and I feel like it was in the spring. And I had recently watched Milk, the movie about Harvey Milk. And, like, one of the. You saw that movie, right?

[18:11] DAVID HAVIS: Yes. Yes.

[18:12] TIM HAVIS: Like, one of the main things that I remember from that movie was theme constantly saying, like, you have to come out. You have to tell people. You have to, like, make your presence known, because there's no other way that you know it's going to become acceptable or whatever word they used. Like, if people don't think they know anyone like that, then there's nothing that's going to change about it. And at that point, I had. I came out to Grace January of 2020. God, I went to college from, what, 2008 to 2012? I think it was January of 2009, I came out to grace. And then the following April, right before Easter, Saturday night before Easter, I was with mom in the kitchen, and I was like, hey, mom, I'm gay. And she kind of looked at me. But you were one of the last ones I came out to because I was nervous that I didn't want you to be upset about the. I didn't think you'd be upset about me being gay. I didn't want you to be upset about maybe the way people have treated me or, like, I guess I was scared to accept that sympathy or empathy or whatever that is. I didn't want you to think that I had, like, lived this terrible life up until then, and I had been treated poorly. And so I just, like, didn't want to say it to you, but that movie was like, come out, come out, come out, come out. Like, tell everyone. So I was like, well, he's the last one. Like, I need to tell. Mom had kind of outed me to Joe inadvertently. And so I just remember being like, okay, I've got to tell him now. And. But I had no concern about. I had no thoughts that you would be against it or push back or, like, I hoped that you wouldn't be disappointed, and I didn't think that you would be. And I really don't. I remember it being pretty quick. I don't know if it was a very long conversation. I remember you kind of reacting the way I had hoped, which was, like, supportive and caring. And I think I. I remember you saying, like, that doesn't change my love for you. And so I remember all of those experiences with my family were all positive. My concern was always wrapped up in, like, the external of, like, is this gonna. Are people gonna be frustrated with mom because she's at a church? And, like, are they gonna say some stuff about that or feel a certain way about that? I've always known you to be, like, a very empathetic person, and I feel, like, emotionally intelligent, and I didn't. I was scared that that might go into the line of, like, taking on some of that challenge that I've had in dealing with people who have said things to me. And so that was what scared me about it. But your reaction was not scary or I upsetting. And I was really. I was really relieved because I think at that point, I realized, like, okay, everything is fine. The main people that need to know, they know, and all the people know, and that's fine. But, like, I just don't. I don't have to worry about the closest people in my life anymore, like, hiding that from them or not being honest about that.

[21:57] DAVID HAVIS: Yeah. I do remember telling you that this doesn't change anything between you and I and that I always loved you and this made no difference, and I kind of suspected it. I'd heard some conversations and, you know, heard that you were bullied in middle school and high school. But, you know, I guess I was always kind of wondering about the dangers because there are people who are violently opposed to that way of life. And I don't know how you withhold cups of grace from the LGBTQ community and say you can. People say they cannot accept that, but that's never been an issue. And I may have. I probably told you this before, but my counselor, early on, when I told her that I thought you were gay at an early age, and what can I do about this? And she said, you're not going to change, Tim You're going to have to change you. She pointed me to PfLAG and said, write these people. Call these people. Get some information so you can deal with this properly. And you well know, she's made several, you know, hit me right between the eyes points about places and changes I need to make in my life. And I'm so grateful for her early on pointing me in that direction and getting prepared for when you decided to come out. And so that really helped, helped me educate me to the point of that day, of that phone call. So I got a feeling. Granny Ruth, well, she's always been very acceptance of it. But I'm not sure about Papal Jean. You know, I think he was more traditional. This is the mold. This is the black and white piece you need to be and the man you need to be. And so I don't think he would have gotten that at all from him. But, you know, your uncle Kenneth, or my uncle Kenneth being who he was and who he was back then, I got a little pre dose of that, too, although it was more on the negative side, because just the way I grew up. But that didn't change until much later, until after he had passed away.

[24:45] TIM HAVIS: Yeah, I was thinking about. I've thought about papal Jean a lot. Maybe not a lot. A little bit. A handful of times. In this realm of, like, what would he think? What did he think? Was he perceptive to that? Like, did he have his speculation about me? Did he know? I don't. I mean, was what, 20 when he passed aways? 20, 113 years ago? Twelve years ago. And I saw a photo. It's been so fun to see photos of him when he was younger, when he was not in a hospital. Like, to see him with us in their living room in the Dan, and there's a picture of the two of us, and it's just him and me. And he's sitting in the chair right by the secretary, like, next to his small bathroom, and I'm standing right next to him. And we are just, like, busting up laughing. And it is. I'm probably nine years old, and I have no idea what we were talking about, but it was just. I kind of feel like even though he's not with us right now physically, I kind of wonder if he's wherever he is, just in living, in acceptance. And, like, I. And here's maybe why I think this, because I remember one Christmas, maybe, that we were also in the Dan, all ten of us, and I think we were playing spinner or something like that. And I think he had made a racist joke. And Vanessa was there, and I remember her crying about it, and I didn't totally know what was going on, but I just remember seeing her in the kitchen and looking at Scott and her just crying and saying, like, that's just not right. We can't talk like that. And I remember him eventually, later that evening, apologizing, I think it was, to her, which in my book, especially right now, considering his age, like that is. That's growth, and that's pretty quick growth for. And I sensed it as a genuine apology. And so I just wonder if maybe he did have these maybe he was a little bit more close minded to the queer community, but I don't know that he would be so upset about it. I kind of would hope that he would look around and see, like, still a functioning adult in some capacities, like, still successful, you know, doing the best that they can, and, like. And that's enough, you know? And that's all I think I could ask for. And, I mean, I sense that, and I just would like to. I wish he was still here. It would be. It would be kind of fun to talk with him about that, but I don't know. And I don't. I mean, who's to say if that's true? But I feel like the way that granny. We haven't, you know, talked explicitly about it, but we've talked a little bit about it out on the patio, smoking a cigarette, and I. I don't know. I think that any issues that he might have, she would probably pull him over to our side.

[28:30] DAVID HAVIS: Yeah, I think. I think that was. I probably need to retract some of my statements about my dad, in his view, because with uncle Kenneth, my dad. I don't know if you heard this story, but Uncle Kenneth, they refused to seat him on a greyhound bus because of his hair. And so he sat in front of that greyhound bus in Dallas, and they took him to jail. And my dad went up there and posted bail money and got him out of jail, and he knew Kenneth was a gay then. And, you know, my dad had a soft spot for Kenneth, and I do remember other things that Kenneth needed help with, and my dad would do that. And then at uncle Kenneth's funeral, some of my dad's brothers didn't show up because Kenneth was gay. And. But my dad went, and my mom went, and all of his sisters went, and. And I don't know why I didn't show up. I don't know what was going on, but I did not come back for that funeral, which I wish I would have, but. So I think my dad would have been papal. Jean would have been more open about it just because of his involvement with Kenneth.

[29:58] TIM HAVIS: Well, and I think, too, sometimes, I don't know. I've learned this with John a little bit, too, as mom has shared with about him since he's passed away, that it feels like sometimes the. I wouldn't say that John was, like, outwardly a hard person, but he was kind of a loud person that could maybe be seen as not closed minded, but just. I don't really know what I'm trying to say, but I think sometimes the interior is a lot softer than people want to either see in someone else or feel internally as your own person. Like, they might want to have this Persona of being rigid and, like, structured. And I think Papal Jean was those things. Maybe rigid is a. Is a too far, but, like, I always knew there was a soft spot there, but I also feel like it's only becoming socially acceptable for men to show that soft spot right now. Like, that's been. That's where I think, kind of you and Joe were, and I feel like it took Joe a little bit longer, but that's sort of how I've always known you to be as my dad, and I think that's been a great role model for me to see that. And I think it's been a great role model for our family to witness that emotional change or growth or however you want to describe it. But, like, Harriet gets some of the credit, but, like, a lot of that credit needs to be given to you, because that's what you've been. I mean, I think that's one of the big things you've been doing for 20. How many years?

[31:57] DAVID HAVIS: Yeah, for you, since 1990s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 23 years.

[32:03] TIM HAVIS: I think that is something that we're all still, like, striving to do. And every time I think I've gotten one little nugget of, like, information from my therapist or, you know, from sharing with other people, it's like, I feel like we end up eventually getting on that topic or, like, talking about those things, and it just adds another layer of understanding, I feel like, to that, when you share those experiences and those thought processes, I appreciate you sharing that with me, because I feel. I don't know. It's been a lot this past year, but it's been a lot the past six years, eight years, ever since we've freaking left Edwardsville and all kind of went out. And so I'm just grateful that you were confident enough to talk about that stuff with us, and I think it's encouraged a lot of us to engage in that type of thinking and processing with each other.

[33:12] DAVID HAVIS: Thank you for saying that. Each of the kids is different, you know, and that's a good thing, because, you know, we don't need four crushers in the world.

[33:27] TIM HAVIS: Oh, my God. No, we do not.

[33:29] DAVID HAVIS: But, no, each kid has been different, and so it's been easy. It's been wonderful to see how each one is gifted in different ways. And I think that's just been a real point of acceptance within mom. You know, mom and I. About how each kid has developed and each let you find your own path. And I guess one thing I wanted to talk about just real quick in all of your, when you were teaching high school music and in all of your performances, which is something I look forward to every fall and spring because you did one, I thought your social justice concert was the top shelf of all of your performances, and I just wanted you to talk a little bit about what that meant to you, what happened to some of your kids and maybe some of the parent responses from that social justice concert.

[34:30] TIM HAVIS: Yeah, it. The first one was really exciting. I think the first one was early enough in the. So this was what, March of 20 1718 1920. Spring of 2019 was the first one that we did. And it seemed to be at the beginning of the school district approving and implementing all of this social justice, I'm not gonna say curriculum necessarily, but, like, giving us the green light to talk about that stuff in the classroom. And I was starting to feel confident enough to share my experience, but also, too, through some training to facilitate those conversations for young people because I knew that that was not something that we talked about when I was in high school, not at all. And it is such important stuff to be aware of. And so it was exciting and it felt. I felt like I was learning stuff from the kids, too. I felt like they were really starting to think critically in a way that I hadn't known young people to do. And it felt. It kind of felt energetic because the kids wanted to talk about those things, too. And it was making sure that there was a lot of other stuff wrapped up in that. It's like, how do we relate to people? How do we speak to each other as human beings, even when we're not talking about social justice? And there's, like, a self awareness piece in there, too, of, like, what do we see when we're out in the world and how are we behaving in those spaces? And so it felt like that topic was able to bring together so many things that I think are challenging for young people to really think about, or they don't have the space or support to think about it and discuss it. And I felt like I had a gift in being able to talk about those things with kids and to connect with them. And so I think. And the concert was just kind of like the fun part, right? And then we got to do that through the avenue of music. And so it brought together something that I didn't know I was so interested in. And the music piece of like, okay, well, I can do this blind. Like, we can learn a song in 2 seconds, and they're going to be fine and people are going to love it. But the growth that happened in that concert and the second time around, it was a little bit more challenging because everyone was hot about everything, and people were not listening to each other, and people were not listening to each other up until the night of the concert. And by that, I mean, like, they were only. They were speaking at each other, and they weren't understanding what people were saying. They weren't giving people the benefit of the doubt. That piece of, like, graciousness felt like it was lacking. And it was really hard to get them back into that, because once someone thought they were offended by something someone said, their ears shut off. And that happened to me, that happened to other kids. And once the hair's raised on your neck, it's hard to go back from that and to get people to calm down and go back into that space of listening and understanding. And so the second time, the second concert was a lot more difficult, and we made it across the finish line, and I was very proud. I was almost more proud of that concert that we made it across the finish line, because I didn't know if that was going to happen. And it took up until the concert to see that change in some kids. And some kids still had some ways to go, and I still had some ways to go. Like, I had a lot of internal stuff I had to address from that. And so, second time, harder around, but both, both deeply impactful experiences. I think for all people who were involved, parents, kids, myself, as a program, there was a lot. I hope that I left that in some order, at least a little bit, because I know those kids appreciated that space that I created with them.

[39:04] DAVID HAVIS: It looks like we need to kind of wind up, but I just wanted to affirm my love for you and the gift. You have to connect with people, and you're very sincere when somebody reaches out to you. That's a gift you have. And you've always had that gift of music. So I hope that will redevelop somewhere in the future for you in an atmosphere that you will enjoy.

[39:32] TIM HAVIS: Well, thanks, dad, for coming here to do this, too. Thank you for. I think you guys, you and mom helped foster that sincerity, and I just. I love you guys a lot.

[39:45] DAVID HAVIS: Love you, too.

[39:47] TIM HAVIS: Thank you.

[39:48] DAVID HAVIS: Thank you, Jim.