Timothy Huntington and Marcia Drummond

Recorded July 10, 2021 Archived July 7, 2021 58:07 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: ddv000994


Marcia Drummond (50) and her One Small Step partner Timothy Huntington (60) discuss parenting and parenthood, political ideologies, class, and how their youth influenced their views on the meaning of life.

Subject Log / Time Code

- Tim chats about growing up in an academically-rigorous family.
- Marcia shares her experience growing up in Ohio and being the first of her family to complete college.
- Tim asks Marcia about her relationship with her folks and their parenting style.
- Marcia often wishes her parents pushed her to be more focused. However, their relaxed parenting style allowed her the freedom to be open-minded and adventurous.
- Tim shares about his convictions and concerns regarding politics and diversity.
- Marcia shares how she has seen the world change through her community in Ohio.
- Marcia believes that her faith gives her a sense of direction.
- Marcia talks about her definition of success.
- Tim talks about his definition of success.


  • Timothy Huntington
  • Marcia Drummond

Partnership Type



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00:02 Okay, my name is Timothy Huntington. Today's date in Saturday, Saturday, July 10th. 2021. I'm 60 years old. My conversation partner is Marcia Drummond.

00:17 Now, I'm going to read her bio. I'm a mother of three. Adult children, without I love the Lord. Jesus Christ. I believe in love for all equality and respect I from Dayton, Ohio, but I really don't like that. I really don't like Ohio because it's not cold enough for me. I'm really not an advocate for limitations and restrain. So low, they are important. One thing. I've never understood is how a person could eat just like disregard because of the color of their skin or else it because of the color of their skin or ethnicity.

00:54 Is there something else I'm supposed to do?

00:57 So you can go next. Okay, my name is Marcia Drummond on today's date. It's 7:10 2021. My conversation partner is Tim Huntington. I'm 50 years old and we are strangers.

01:22 I'm a very intellectual person. I went to an Ivy League school. I have graduate graduate degrees in law. And Christian theology. I've been a stay-at-home dad most of my life because being there, for my daughter's was very important to me. I'm pretty convinced that most of the problems in the u.s. Today and Paul clashes of culture and values between different groups. I worry that too much diversity in the country, creates chaos and resentment. No common values.

01:59 On your father's for reading each other's by us. So the first question, or the first promise I'll get for both of you is, can you both take about five minutes to tell your partner, your life story as best? You can, you can go first and see if you'd like when I filled out that bio. I was thinking about how I was who I was going to be matched with and I was not trying to be up noxious by like talking about how I went to all these schools and stuff. I just didn't know if that was something that would figure into it and if they would want to match me with somebody based on that. So I mean, I'm not trying to be obnoxious. I just thought it was like important to be honest and and I don't go around telling people, you know that I went to fancy schools and stuff like that and basically my whole

02:59 My whole family went to Harvard. My my my aunts family all went to Harvard and Yale. My dad is up pretty. That was a pretty famous professor at Harvard.

03:17 And so, I grew up in a very academic kind of environment. But my dad was also, he was like a mild child prodigy. Young graduated from college when he was sixteen and he was very hard to relate to as a person. And even people who work with them their whole life, at Harvard talked about how hard it was to get along with him. So so growing up my brother and I had to deal with this and I knew that it would be very easy for me to end up like him working.

03:56 90 hour weeks, never talking to anybody else. So, I kind of like, went to school and I intended to be a scientist and all through my childhood. I was going to be a scientist. I would go to the Boston Public Library. I taught myself to read science journals on the weekend. I am, I taught myself calculus on my own when I was in 9th grade, because I wanted to be a scientist and I had a big chip on my shoulder also, because I have a learning disability. Dyslexia.

04:30 So when I was in elementary school, I had to be tutored for years to learn to read and write. So, you know, I had that and my dad is like this big brain at Harvard. So there was a lot of pressure and I felt a lot of

04:47 I mean, it was, it was, it wasn't just like external pressure. It was like, I wanted to show that, you know, I was just as good as, you know, my parents were. So I had to work really, really hard and like the beginning, one of my greatest accomplishments in life was just getting over my disability. So anyway, so then I went to fancy High School, a little outside Boston. And and then I went, I went, I got into a bunch of colleges and I got to college and I just realized that I could just end up being just like, all of my friends there who were all going to become College professors and I'll, you know, study some obscure little subjected that via know they thought was really important and that's what they've actually done. And I and I thought this wasn't from me so I kind of I might ride become a lawyer, I did that and it was really boring.

05:47 My school was great mental training, which I don't regret that. It was really difficult for me in the law firm cuz I was, like, 2 years younger than everybody else. And I was just kidding. Went to Harvard and everybody was intimidated by me and I did a pretty good job on the stuff. They gave me to do, which made me feel even more intimidated. So I might might my whole experience working has always been like, everyone's excited to have the smart Harvard kid, and then they get intimidated. And then everybody looks for anything they can to cut me down because they want to show that they're just as good as the smart Harvard kid and I have a lot of ambivalence. I had a lot of ambivalence around working because of that. So I started really think about what was important to me and I started talking to therapist and stuff like that. And I turned out my my wife was all gung-ho on being a successful person in the work world. So we just decided to split things up because I really like

06:47 Working and studying. And I knew I had to be there for my daughter because I majored in philosophy and I just did not want to, you know, look back at the age, say, I am now a g. I wish I could spend more time with my daughter when she was growing up. I mean, that was something I'm a naturally anxious person and the idea of regretting not having time with my daughter when I was older just like really scared me. So I'm so I was quite happy to be a stay-at-home Dad wasn't wasn't the easiest thing and watching all my friends go off and have careers and brag about how much money they're making and stuff like that. But but it's it's worked out along the way. I also had a religious conversion when I was her realizing, but I was going to have to do with my life. I had a pretty strong religious conversion. I'm going to piss cappelletty in

07:41 And I went and got a degree in theology, just because I was so excited about my new, my new face. And yeah, so so, you know, I would pick my daughter up at school. I'll do all that kind of stuff. Work my way through math and physics books. I can talk your ear off about quantum, mechanics and Einstein's theory of relativity stuff, like that. That's the stuff that like interest me, that I think about. I have weird. Hobbies. I build exotic radio antennas. I have a ham radio license and I can talk to people in other countries on my radio and I'm I build exotic radio antennas.

08:20 And I love my wife is, I am now she's a vice president and a small pharmaceutical company. So I'm, it's all kind of worked out cuz I've always believed equal rights for women and it actually when I was in Harvard, there was a they were trying to get the Equal Rights Amendment pass to the Constitution at that point. And there was a woman Harvard woman. I'm starting a little Club at Harvard to try to get the Equal Rights Amendment pass. And I was like, the only guy on the in the, in the club who is working to Friday.

09:05 So so I really have, it hasn't bothered me. You know, that my wife has been impressive career and she's, you know, gets job offers from other pharmaceutical companies and stuff like that. I mean, I'll just be a little bit. Let me be honest,, you know, so our daughter is now on, she graduated a year ago, last May so right where we picked her up right before her graduation cuz of covid and got her in college and she's in Washington DC. Now working at a job in, she's interested in international relations, which is weird because that's what my dad was a professor of. So she must have picked it up from me talking about it or something. I don't know. So yeah, so she's successfully left home a few weeks ago. Actually, she was with us.

10:05 Hold it working remotely for a place Washington DC and I should move down there. So my wife and I are sort of like dealing, you know, being empty nesters. So that's that's basically me.

10:26 You want to go now?

10:29 I'm all done. Yeah, sorry, okay.

10:37 Let me see. Let me see. I would be saying that I am like the first person in mind.

10:47 Sector to Lilly, like complete College. I've had my, I had three brothers. I'm the youngest, and I am the baby of the bunch and the only girl. And so, I will say that. Yeah, I was the first one to like complete College. I went to Johnson & Wales University, where I became a pastry arts. I graduated with a degree and paste yards. Also have innocent associate's degree, but I have an associate's degree also in a dietetic technology where I went to Sinclair Community College and I'm working on, I went back to school too enthused my daughter to stay in college, but I'm back in school myself. I'm in the event planning. So that'll be a two-year degree stop when I finish I'll have like three

11:47 Two-year degrees. I do not recommend young people to go that route, but that's my route.

11:53 Let me stay, I would have enlisted one time to go to the Navy, but I decided not to go to the Navy. I end up getting married instead. A lot of people look like, oh my God, you did the wrong thing. But anyway, I did, you end up getting a divorce and then I married again, when I went to culinary school and I had three children by my husband and then actually, we end up getting a divorce.

12:31 And getting remarried after being divorced for 12 years. And so now though I'm widowed.

12:40 And a majority of those years when I was ripping our children. I basically was a single mom and that was, it was a little hard with me, have going to college and then becoming a single parent. I had to end and in the field that I chose which was culinary art. I had to choose whether to be a good parent versus being in the career because in the culinary field you work.

13:13 You know, all the time you work holidays, you work weekend and I did not want to have my children at a daycare where I'm dropping them off at 10 at night or picking him up at 11:00 at night. So I chose to raise them. So for the majority of my adult life, I was a single mom of three children. So now

13:40 All of them are grown. I have two boys and a girl. So the oldest is in the Army and he lives in New Jersey and he's, you know, on an assignment now. And then the middle one, he was in the Army and he went to Iraq for like a year and then my youngest is a daughter and she is presently living in Virginia. And she will be going to Bowie State University starting up in August. So we're excited about that. I work in the hospital. I work in the bait shop at the hospital. I've been there for 16 years. I'm really ready for a career change. I guess. That's where I'm in school now. Also the motivation and also to

14:40 Career changes are ready to. I don't know, do something different. I, I I don't know what yet, but I always say when I grow up, I want to be a because, like I said, my parents, they were late. They went to work. And my, my father was always smart enough to go to college, but they were there generation and their culture. I guess you would say or whatever, when they were growing up, that their parents didn't push them to go to college. And so he didn't go to college. My mother didn't go to college, but they all were, they were always workers. And so,

15:22 With me, they didn't really push. None of us to really go to college. My mother always stressed as education education was important, but there was no Direction, don't know. Like, like you had your father to look up to like, you know, he was at Harvard. He was a professor. So kind of that was your path. Was kind of directed but with my parents, you know, that was not so so, and basically, they let me do whatever I want to. I can remember going to Wright State when I first got out of high school and I had no major claimed. I was, I was having a good time and I'm spending my mother's money and did not even realize it when I got, you know, now that I'm an adult. I was like, my, why don't you sit me down to, like, look here Missy. I'm paying this much for you to be in college and you producing these type of grade.

16:22 But no, she didn't do that. She was just like, oh, well, I don't like then. I was like, I went to cooking school. I went to school nail pop Paso Community College, so I wondered about but so

16:40 What else can I say? I don't know that. I mean, that's I don't know. I wish it were my past would have been a little more structure and I wrapped it and it was because it but it made me though be more specific with my children, you know was like listen you either going to get a Layman's job or you going to go to college, or you can go to the military. Those are your three choices. So, you know, like I said, the two boys military in and then my daughter is going to college and she wants to be a nurse know a PA, a physician's assistant and she likes.

17:30 Oh, be that type of next field. And then, oh, my middle, son is out of the military. And after he came back from Iraq. He got out of the military, but he's, he's doing his own entrepreneurial ship. Now, as far as real estate. He's into real estate where he put buyers and sellers together, and they said, he sells properties and land and stuff like that. So,

18:00 Okay, if you did such a weird babbling about yourself hours for ham and stuff like that, my dad. Oh my God. He used to be a huge. CB person tower that I was laughing cuz my dad used to have a tower built in our yard and it had the cement bottom to it as my wife. Won't let me put in one of those but mommy could not get all the way to Hawaii.

18:54 Okay, I'm done.

18:57 If you have kind of discuss a lot of really interesting Parts about your lives to any of you have questions or the other. I I know that I said, I would ask you any questions, but I just want to give you the opportunity to eat if you have any questions to each other.

19:17 Factual questions. I'm interested in like, in, like the whole sort of Direction, lack of Direction, sort of issue like, that seems kind of interesting to me. But but I mean, it's not like I haven't started factual questions cuz I've always dealt with all sorts of pressures in my life. So, you know, that's the way I think it's an

19:43 So, okay. So when you said, when I told you, when I said that, my parents never really directed each sibling, you know, everybody's story is different cuz sometimes you and your siblings to get the caulking and he was like, I don't really see it like that. So, in my perspective, I feel like my parents did, you know, kind of didn't there was no, there was no lawyer. There was no teacher. There was no, you know, it was my dad. He worked at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, you know, he received several different Awards working there. He excelled and what he did.

20:31 And you know, he was like magnacumlauden of his graduating class, but I asked him. Once I said, why did you go to church? And he said, well, I didn't want your mother to get away.

20:45 I said you should have put a ring on her finger and said I will be back but he didn't know he didn't do that. So he's deceased and they stayed married in.

20:59 Years. My mother is still living. She said she just turned 88 years old. But and then my I had a brother that he was a musician and I actually became, you know famous. I don't know if you either. You are familiar with funk music, funk. That's the type of music he played and he was in a group called slave. So he was out there, you know, big at one time. So he did that my oldest brother, really. He went into law enforcement. So he was a police officer. My younger brother, not so much. And then like with me, like I said, it's like whatever I want to do. They was like, okay, go ahead, do it. Okay, go ahead, do it. And I was like, instead of just like, you know, no more. So you need to focus on this.

21:57 So, I was down.

22:05 But,

22:07 I don't know. That's the only thing that kind of irritates me. But I will say though, it has left me to wear. I think it made me like more open-minded because they let me try any and everything. I wanted to because my life I want to go to a dude ranch. And so where I live and in my neighborhood is, you don't see any horses that all some light. Okay. So if you want to do it to a dude, makes you going to have to learn how to manipulate men, Uber deal with horses. So people can use Free Labor. Let me see the stable around here, and yell down the road. And I worked at a horse stable for like 6 months and I overcame my fear.

23:07 Horses because when I first started at the place, I was kind of scared of her cuz you know, like I said, I'm not used to work. I had to do you know this. But it's like my mind. I don't know. It grows Me by letting me do different things and experience different thing. I'm not afraid to experience different things in and you know, just check it out and see if you like it, if you don't. So

23:43 I have a question in your bio when you had mentioned.

23:52 Oh, women will. Oh, okay. When you had mentioned, I worry too much diversity in the country. Creates chaos and resentment. No common values. What did you mean by that? Right. So,

24:10 I guess my when I, when I first learned about this whole sordid story Court thing, it seemed much more sort of politically Focus to me, then about like, you know, red States vs Blue States and all that kind of stuff rather than telling individual bios. Like, I'm fact, I think it's like, when I the first reported I saw that, I think we talked about us having our personal stories at all. So, I thought it was going to be about talking more about our visions of like what the US is supposed to be like and I do, and I actually do a lot of that because I subscribe to the New York Times and the comments on constantly making comment when he comments in the comments section and I tend to be politically I think of myself as being, I try to be really in the middle cuz I can see both sides, but I think both sides in the extremes are like really juvenile at both ends of the political Spectrum, so I try to be an adulterer.

25:10 And I'm so I try to post them comments in the New York Times and they actually a lot of them, get them get censored out by the New York Times cuz it doesn't. I'm not liberal enough for the New York Times.

25:23 I guess when I talk about diversity the, the country was founded by certain bunch of white people and we can talk about how do you know, evil or whatever you want to think of them as what? One of them was there's a declaration of independence. He was the governor of Connecticut at the time. So I'm like a real relative Kim. So my family goes way back on the other side. I'm half Armenian, which is in Armenia is a little country, south of Russia and my grandfather came here around during World War 1.

25:59 And I feel like the US was created by these white Europeans. And then we had all these white European immigrants, come in. And people grumbled about them. And there were Italians and there, wouldn't drill men's, and there were Jews, and they're all these people coming in, but they all assimilated because they did have a lot in common to start with the, they were all from very similar kinds of places in Europe. And I feel like, as you get people who are more and more not European coming into a country that was set up with those kind with those kind of ideas. What we know created by people with those kinds of ideas. They just they don't know how to fit in and I have personal examples because my, my wife's sister, my sister-in-law went to Africa, to West Africa, to do charity work for a Catholic organization. If you came back, married to a guy,

26:59 Andrew and they had two kids. So I have two, two nieces, who are working of, technically. I guess you would say black like, because they're half white, half black witch for some reason, they considered black people seem to talk and Andrew was a disaster. I mean, he came to this country. He could not function. His wife was not all that helpful cuz she had her own issue, but he ended up becoming a criminal and he was, he was put in a Detention Facility and eventually sent back to Africa where he then called. He went back to his hometown and he was called the American because he actually been to America end and kicked out and then sent back. And it's, it's like a it's awful. He became a police officer and he was eventually killed by a drug guy.

27:59 She was investigating. They ran him over with a garbage truck all this on a bicycle. And yeah, and, and so then, so I had these two beautiful nieces and we were, you know, they were my sister while they were like, really poorly live Inn on Rhode Island, which you knows. I don't know if he looks like the poorest state in the country. We paid for their camps. We paid for all sorts of stuff for them. We were really nice to them. And what ended up happening is they were raised Conservative Catholics. And they, when they, when they became teenagers, they decided to really instead of just sort of being the kind of completely white environment. And they were like the two black kids that they decided to adopt what they saw as like Black Culture. So so they got on social media and

28:59 Everything became very cool and whatever the common things Arbor on social media. And the eldest daughter was supposed to go to Community College. She wasn't smart. When did the second daughter was was was a lot smaller. The first daughter was supposed to go to Community College and she got pregnant by her first-ever boyfriend and because they're Conservative Catholics in the portion. So she had she had a baby. The second daughter, got an all-expense, paid scholarship to a Catholic college in Texas. All expense, paid her entire everything paid because she won a debate National debate. Competition to my place will be highly in it.

29:47 And she went off to this college in Texas. And her first semester. She got pregnant by some guy at a party. And because they're conservative Catholic. She wasn't going to have an abortion so she dropped out of college. So she literally I have so I have to buy my only two black relatives both dropped out of college to have kids, which is awful because it's kind of like, I mean, I'm sorry, but it is kind of a stereotype, you know, if your if you are nasty conservative person, you could look at that and say, you see, you know that they like having babies. They don't like studying again, you know, unfortunately really fast and see that. I mean to put another angle on this my cousin. So this is my mother's sister's daughter.

30:40 Married an immigrant from a Muslim from Egypt in Egyptian and he turned out to be a power of controlling domineering, completely misogynistic sexist, whatever you want. Nut job, they separated when she was she went back to living with her dad she won which was like down the street from where we live. I was out walking the dog and I saw it all these posters up on all of the lamp post. This is in downtown Boston. He had written this long paragraph attacking her as a person, and saying, he was being persecuted as a person with dark skin by this rich white lady and that he needed help, and he posted them all over her neighborhood.

31:31 So so when I think of like oh diversity, I mean obviously I don't want everybody to be the same but I also want there to be some kind of like, I don't know. I feel like

31:47 Just because something works in Egypt, doesn't mean it works in Boston, right? I mean or still think I'm some somebody can be successful in West Africa. Doesn't mean I can come here and be successful and I'm the Country Wasn't set up for that. I mean it could have been set up for that but it's not like it's not like the country was designed to take people from anywhere and make them productive. Like everyone in the country is kind of competing with each other, trying to get ahead and write and and yeah, and so it just, you know, and I feel I feel really bad about African-Americans or, or I'm sorry. That's what I used to use. Now. I'm black. I have to keep upright. Me personally. I see myself as African American ancestors. Came from Africa. I'm an American. I live in America. So African-American, but whatever.

32:47 Well, I mean, I just seems as noxious. I mean like to make one to make the whole skin color thing. The term you use like that just seems like nasty. I mean like I say the people I'm half Armenian and Armenians have lots of body here. So if somebody called me Harry, I would not appreciate that like that. I do not want to be called Carrie because it's like a physical characteristics that I happen to have, right? I mean so, you know, I mean, I mean, slaves did not want it, did not deserve to be taken here. I totally get that. I also see that like historically we're talking about people in the 16 and 17 hundreds and I don't think it's fair to judge them by our standards, you know, because it's just a it was a long time ago and people were doing all sorts of awful things to each other back then.

33:41 I am not giving in slavery the pass at all. But it just it seems weird to like look back that way. But I do African Americans. No one has ever said, you know, we needed to help me. I do understand. We have a, we have a Bureau of Indian Affairs which is right for Native Americans. We don't have a bureau of African American Affairs to help like the descendants of slaves to like a simile to this country that they were dumped it, you know, and I've never understood why we don't why we don't do that. We sort of do with all these little programs here and there but nobody kind of I think of it as a cultural issue. Like I'm like when you say you don't know but he directed me to this and this and I got to sort of figure things out what you did. It took a long time, you know, maybe if

34:29 If I die if my niece's have had different expectations, put on the maybe they would have turned out differently and, you know, be more successful cuz they're both working in nursing homes. Now. What are we going to get there? I mean, imagine you go from getting an all-expense for your college to changing, bedpans in a in a nursing home. I mean up to me, that's a tragedy. Cuz she's like smart and you know, what? What can you do? Sorry. I'm just ranting that.

34:59 I don't know as a black person African American person and I live, you know, on this side of town with you. No majority black people and all my life and I've seen my my world changed like my children don't know the world that I used to not, like, when I grew up in my neighborhood. In fact, I live in the same house. I grew up in. I bought it from my mom. When I grew up in my neighborhood near work. I saw, you know, people that were African American black, whatever you want to say that were veterinarian, they own their own businesses and they were thriving businesses. Now, I saw that on the outside, so,

35:56 Where is my kids nowadays my children?

36:02 Where I where we live. They don't see that so much.

36:08 And I just sometimes eat even myself. I do like what happened. You know, where did that go? And, and then because myself of how I am, like I told you I'm not afraid to do this and try this. And my kids are the same way. They, we've lived on a meager budget, but I make sure that my kids were cultured. Like if you saw in my bio cultured and culture, doesn't always have to mean that you have, the money is the resources. If you can tap into different resources, you know, and I made sure that my children was not afraid to try this and try that. But with that being said, because of those type of values that I

37:03 Her tray and I put it in them. We were considered acting like white people. That's irritating. That's irritating. And it's not that acting. Light is a bad thing, but that's not who, you know why? You know, I always say, like, why is it that I like horses? And I like to be around horses is acting like, why is that? Why is that it? Because when people say it, okay, let me just say this one black people say that. They don't mean it in a positive way. Yeah. I know you don't have to tell me that. I do hate that your nieces, you know, where provided that opportunity and it did. And it still doesn't have to be, like, down the toilet. I mean,

38:03 Her act together because she had a child, she can tap back into the IAA. I raised three children basically myself and well, I'm staying with God. Cuz I and, you know, I believe her Jesus. And if it was not for my relationship with God, I don't think that. No, I know, I would have lost my mind and it was through his guidance and direction that my children and myself did have direction that I thought I didn't have. And you know, that my mother, you know, I try not to let you know her because she, you know, she works hard. She's retired. She's living her nice. Little life is tough, and I love my mom, and I love my daddy. But if you know how, I don't know, when you get older and you become an adult and you become a parent, you can see your parents laws.

39:01 And and we got flaws as well cuz our kids is going to grow up and your daughter probably going to go up and have kids and you don't see flaws that we had because nobody's a nobody gives parenting perfect nobody but

39:19 I don't know. I just I just man opportunities that your niece had. I wish my kids. I mean, but intent, there is some people to I figured, you know, I'm looking at as an as an adult.

39:39 You don't always have to be up here to be happy. Some people and happy and thriving, you know, I don't like to see the damn down. But I mean, maybe you never know. Maybe they'll be changing bedpans and stuff for you. And for me, I'm just not that person, but maybe they're happy doing it. You never know.

40:05 I don't know, you know and some people are happy doing it and some people thrive at doing it. Some people I mean that serves a purpose because I'm telling you. I don't know if you ever been where you could not take care of your stuff yourself, as far as like an operation or like I can remember I was telling my son the other day. I said, I can remember that. I had to rely on a nurse to clean me up after I had a C-section because I couldn't feel anything from the waist down. Thank God for that. Perfect person. You know that. Oh, yeah. I know if you need to know I mean

40:53 No, I know it's just it's just, you know, from my perspective because I'm like a brainy person. I like thinking when it when I either I need work, that's really dull. So I can just be thinking and, you know, like I I've had temp jobs. Where do you know? I'm answering phones. I mean, it was like, when I was in my twenties, I would be answering phones in an office. And I have my book open and I'd be like doing math problems and then the phone rings and I answer it, you know, stuff like that. But, you know, for someone like like my my niece who like had, you know, she she wanted to be a, she wanted to go into forensics like, you know, TV shows with all the crimes with all the lab stuff and like, she really gung-ho on that. And, you know, she went off to college. And literally, I think she saw that, her big sister had had a baby and she fell competitive, and you wanted me to let you know. And I hate I hate saying this because, you know again, I mean, you know, let's let's not kid ourselves. I mean,

41:53 Stereotypes about black women and having lots of babies and and not being able to control themselves, but it's just, you know, it's awful for me just to see that happen and then you know, obviously you can explain it as a particular situation and you know, their mom was all controlling and then she went off to college and she got crazy and you know, whatever. But but you know, one thing I want to talk about is I'm the kind of relays to this which is a way of time this together a little bit is fear of failure because like my whole life has been governed by a fear of failure. So when I was a kid, I was terrified that I wasn't going to cuz I literally couldn't keep up the other kids in school, right? Because of my learning disability and they would all go out to English class and I would go to my tutor who was part of the school, right? Then, I would be tutor because I could not keep up with that bright and eventually, and that just felt awful. It was humiliating everything, right? So there was a sphere.

42:53 So, so that push me to overcome that right. Then, you know, my dad is a famous big brain. Okay. Well, you know, I should be able to be a big brain to do, you know, my dad was a social scientist. So I wanted to be a physical science is the physicist, who deals with math, cuz I feel like that's, like more serious thinking then like, you know, talking about people, anybody can do that, right? So I push myself to do that and, you know, I got into all these fancy colleges. I got into 7 colleges.

43:27 And then when I was there, it was like, well, I'm at Harvard. I want to graduate with honors from Harvard. Will to do that. You have to write a thesis. So, you know, there, I am writing a philosophy thesis. You know, when I'm 22 years-old, dealing with no working with these professors, who are the greatest Minds in the, in the field and stuff like that. And then, you know, my, my, this was the mid-80s and my mom might my parents are, obviously, my dad to put a scientist. We want to call or text, my my dad, like work for a bunch of different presidents and stuff, and they wanted me to go into my mom's. So I ended up going to law school and I didn't really like law school and I wasn't even at school. I was like a c student, but, but there was all this expectation and I, and I just the alternative, at the time was just like being nothing, you know, like, like working in McDonald's or something like that. So there was this constant.

44:27 Fear of failure, all the way along and it wasn't a nice experience in a lot of ways. Like my childhood. I don't think it was like, a great time and I'm much happier as an adult now than I ever was as a kid, but, you know, but I I just like, I see like, you know, when I looked at, when I think about like different ethnic groups that like like a people from Asia, you know, Korean and Vietnamese and stuff their parents with all this pressure on them to succeed and like my daughter has all these friends who are Asian and their parents. With all this pressure on them in. They want to major in English or they want to major in computer animation, but they have to become doctors because that's what the parents want. So, so yeah, so I just feel like, I feel like this country kind of

45:19 It's like you have to you have to if you don't if you don't have any inner motivation to push you to not like wander or screw up, then all the people who aren't wandering and screw up or going to end up. Getting to know ahead of, you seems like we know each of you like define success. Do you define it? According to the sort of like societal expectation of having a lot of money and property and all those things chords. You kind of see it as something may be more spiritual or more interpersonal.

46:02 Or maybe both, I don't know, but I'm just, I feel like that could be an interesting thing to ponder together.

46:12 Success from me is a little bit of both. I don't have to be like, super wealthy, but I mean, I would like a little bit more than I have now, and I also believe in spiritual health and well-being.

46:36 Mental health and well-being. Those that that is successful to me when a person is just like at peace and grounded. Yes. Still.

46:52 You know, may have money, you know, but but still well-rounded and ground it in and spiritual healthiness and health in this to meet a success.

47:09 Yeah. Yeah, I would say. So I started out in a world. That was very superficial. Every everybody who's at professor, at Harvard and works at Harbor. And they all think they're the, the, the greatest thing since sliced bread. And they're all trying to convince everybody else. And it's really obnoxious and it felt awful and I did not like the environment. I didn't like being there. I almost dropped out and over the course of like work talking to, you know, therapist again. I've been seeing a therapist, my whole life on my phone, my mom clinically depressed, or whole life, so that doesn't help.

47:50 I've learned that all I can really do is make myself as content as I am in myself on. And at this point, you know, some of that means meeting doing things. I have to do. I'm doing a good job at them like, like raising my daughter. I have like, I don't know how to describe the site. I have certain like inclinations just like somebody might have an inclination towards music. I have an inclination, but it's towards thinking of a particular kind of way. So I try to do that and I study math and I study Physics. And I'm interested in the nature of the world, in the universe and, and, and, and things like that. And so to me to be like a person who's exploring things.

48:41 In a way that's satisfying to me. That's that's kind of like, I guess exploring the world in a way that's satisfying and making sure that you're not leaving anything that you're supposed to be doing along the way, like, you know, like taking care of your children or your other responsibilities.

49:04 So I've gone from being having this very shallow to being a much more spiritual but it's taking a lot of her life will do that to you. And I've also learned that a lot of stereotypes have truth to them and might not necessarily your individual troops. But a lot of stereotypes, haves a lot of Truth to them, but I will say this, if you want to share, you know, my story with your niece, don't give up on her just yet or either either one. Definitely the, the one that's that seems to be scholastically, you know, smart and stuff. It does not have to go, you know, down here on from there. Just, you know, and if you would love to share her like a story, Andy, I do know.

50:02 It wasn't easy. I am I will say that but you know, you know, I

50:09 I don't own my own house and maybe meet I own my own card. I work everyday and I have done that all through their lives. And I raised those three kids and boys are not easy as a female, you know, up to a certain point. I felt that you know, woo boy. Cuz I know I can never be a man. So I never know. You know, I'm so I could never relate after a certain point on a circle. Yeah, you know but up, but it

50:54 Okay, as soon as you say that because there's a Law & Order episode that has Whoopi Goldberg in it, and he's running a group home for like, for Orphans. And she says, she only raises boys, because boys do what their mother says that. She would never raised even ever have girls in her group. I'm going to let you know, I have to do it. I mean,

51:23 I love my babies. I love all three of them.

51:35 So I think we have to wrap up soon. But before I just want to ask one more question, I'm like really enjoying this conversation. It's so interesting to hear both of your perspectives. So just one more question, what are some transformative moments in your life that have informed? Your politics specific kind of talked about your personal backgrounds, but I'm kind of interested in how you talked a little bit about your politics, but I'm interested in like your personal backgrounds have kind of been formed the way you think about your politics. So just answer the question one more time. What are some transformative moment in your life that inform your politics?

52:26 Okay. Imma go first on this, okay?

52:30 On a hike.

52:32 What is the most transformative moment has? When Trump was in office?

52:40 Oh my God, you know, when Obama was in office? Yes, I was happy, you know, you don't look like, you know, cuz I honestly am not a political person. I am not. I'm I'm more. The, I'm going to Daisy's friend love spray on everybody. I'm a really but Trump in office. I have never witnessed so much.

53:07 I don't know. Clamor, you know, Trump being in office. It really has profoundly and living Ohio. It really affected my life to where, you know, me being adventurous person. I like to just hang to try this, try that. I don't care. You know, I don't let my skin on my ethnicity of the hold me back, but I was actually scared to travel certain places in Ohio, by car. I'm just going to say it. So Trump being president really profound Lee.

53:48 Affected me greatly. Yeah, and end and not just not just a Prejudice part of it. Either my son, my middle one. When he first came back from Iraq. He was standing in line at a Walmart and it was two black people that were stuck behind him and they were like, he heard them. Look at him. He's a trump supporter.

54:17 And it was like my son was bite, you know, he didn't say anything. He just kept, you know, what? If I know he has medical, he has schooling paid for if he wants to go to school about being Trump's border and he supported this country for you missed his life. Okay. So yeah, so I was saying my transformational. My life was Trump been in office.

54:47 That's recent, okay.

54:50 I would say so I was brought up in superlibro, Massachusetts. Okay, so it was just like, everybody gets do everything they want and corporations are evil. And the rest of the country is stupid. That's basically how everybody thinks here. And I guess for me to two big things were first was going to law school in Duke in North Carolina and seeing what the South was like, it's not the Deep South, but it was just like there were roads that weren't paid for that. You actually do a robot gravel roads, but they weren't paid then. I just like it, never even occurred to me that there are parts of the country, but didn't have paved roads. That was just like crazy. And I mean, this was in the 1980s, so maybe they're paid now and the people were really conservatives and like, I would go to get my haircut.

55:48 Innertown in Durham and Lucas and the woman cutting my hair. I could tell she was like really conservative and I could just like feel how much he didn't like me cuz I was just like smart-ass with Northern kid at Duke coming down there. You know, I don't know if I could just tell they hated my guts and and then I was too liberal kid in in Wasco. I was the amount. I was the, the liberal kid who went to Harvard and all the pretty much everybody else and Duke Law School at wants to be a corporate lawyer and make lots of money and they're really conservative. So I was always sticking up for the, the defendant, you know, in criminal law. I was looking at the Vic the, the record. Do. You know, I was always on the side of the underdog.

56:48 Then I had my religious conversion, which sort of showed me. I don't know how it was very odd to. It's very hard to explain how it affected me, politically a kind of pulled me out of the whole thing. I feel like it made me much more, like, kind of like everybody sucks. Everything's bad. There's original sin in the world. No liberals. I feel like they people are basically good. Well know, you know, I got the bike. I went on a trip in Europe and I visited a concentration camp, and you don't visit a concentration camp, you know, and then think how people are basically good cuz you just it's the last thing you think. Okay. So so I would say yeah, I would say basically spending three years in the South coming from the really little in the North, Massachusetts and

57:44 And then it, my religious conversion which again kind of like made me see that?

57:51 Did everybody that everybody's? Everybody's messed up in somebody?

57:58 Okay. Well, I think I'm going to stop the recording. We actually ended up going.