Tonya Wenger and Paris Lipsey-Coley

00:05 Hi, my name is [email protected]. 49 years old. Today is Friday, October 8th, 2021. I am in Hutchinson, Kansas. My partner's name is Paris lipsey-coley. And she is my one small step conversation partner.

00:26 Good afternoon, early evening. My name is Paris. Lipsey-coley IM 49 years old. Today is Friday, October 8th, 2021. I am in Wichita. My partner's name is Tanya Ramer wanker.

00:44 And she is my one step, one small, step in partner.

00:54 So I decided to be part of this interview today, I think, because I want to practice, I want wanted to practice talking to somebody new to talking to somebody who might have different views than I do. Because I feel like we're culturally were losing some of those skills. And so I wanted to be willing to put myself into an uncomfortable space and hopefully to learn something about myself, then somebody else.

01:25 I think I wanted to do it more for just wanting to learn.

01:33 Something about someone other than those people that I come in contact with, are those people who travel in the same Circle or, or in a similar Circle? So I, I love learning new things about new people and I thought this would be a great opportunity to do just that.

02:00 So this is Paris has bio. She wrote. I'm a 48 year-old mother of two grown children. My husband and I have been married for 22 years. I'm from Wichita, Kansas. I've lived here, all my life.

02:20 I'm currently from Hesston Kansas, but has also lived in Colorado, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Arizona, and Wisconsin. I've been a midnight Pastor for almost 22 years and am currently serving. My second congregation. I'm married with four children ages, 2017, 14 and 8. I care deeply about about issues of Injustice and try to partner with God's reconciliation and Shalom. I believe the movement of God in the world is to gather together to heal. What is broken to make home.

03:01 Paris, I wondered if you would want to say more about your children,

03:13 My daughter, deyjah. I had her first. I had her when I was 18 and she's thirty years old. She lives in San Antonio, Texas. She just moved in December 2020. I went to a tad bit of a depression when she left because she's like, my best friend. So she is a wonderful Creator. Did she move there with the company that she works for? And then my twenty-year-old, and he was an athlete in college and high school. We thought he would continue to play sports in college, but he met a girl fell in love and

03:59 That part is the blessing in both of it is that I have two grown children that are in good health and they are wonderful contributors to the world. You know, I may not may not have taken the path, but I didn't take the past. My mother wanted me to take either though.

04:30 Tell me how you got into the pasture ship, complicated process. Right now. I'll go in a context where women would not necessarily have been encouraged to become a group in Ohio, and I came out to Kansas for college actually at Bethel College in North Newton and they're really fell in love with studying the Bible and kids are required Bible classes and writing. I really loved writing and I got a lot of affirmation in that context for gifts that people thought and me. I didn't necessarily see them in myself and

05:30 Programs for college students to kind of test out after a Ministry. And I did a summer internship with that congregation. Now while I was in college and I would say that was really quite pivotal and opening up to the idea of Astro Ministry.

06:06 An evolving Journey.

06:10 What has been your greatest challenge?

06:13 Oh my

06:18 I would say, I did not feel prepared for handling. Ironically on contentious issues in the church and polarizing full arising issues. And I'm particularly sexuality probably would be. I just, I just did not feel equipped to know how to navigate that, because I'm Pastor Ministry is so multi-layered. And in some ways were expected to like be an expert in everything, to be a social worker, to be an expert Theologian. An expert Communicator of expert administrator and it's it's hard to cut live into and accept the things. I am good at and then to try to get the help. I need with the things that I'm just not as skilled in.

07:13 Yeah. Coming into my own sense of my own identity and giftedness and trusting that and not feeling less than because there's so many things. I don't feel like I'm as Adept at

07:32 Who in the most influential person in your life. And what did they teach you?

07:38 Well, actually, the person who came to mind for me, was my supervising Pastor in that internship, that I talked about. His name is Jim strong, and she modeled for me, just a really lovely way of being a pastor. I would call myself an introvert. He is very introverted, and I had this perception of pastors as new. You have to be really extroverted and charismatic and energetic, and still, I can't be a pastor. That's just not that doesn't fit my personality, but I saw him.

08:22 Really be himself and be authentic and be really effective in that role. And one of the most important things, he taught me, was it it through my life. It would be more important who I am, then what I do. And so to really emphasize my character, my values, my my just who I am, who I am, and not be so concerned about doing everything perfectly or everything, right?

08:52 Paris. What about you? Who's been the most influential person in your life? I feel like really and I say that because she was raised very old school in the sense that you know, she grew up in the Church of God in Christ, which is the nomination. And she of course raised me and my brother the same way very old school parenting Styles. So, you know, we did get spankings. He got finished and all of those things, but as she developed, of course, as a grandmother, cuz for some reason, parents are much better Grand grandparents than they are.

09:41 Parents. As far as that the liberality is, if they allow their grandkids, but like what I like and love about my mother is she's never afraid to admit when she's wrong. You know, she can be very, she can be very humble, but she can also be very vulnerable, you know, and, you know, we've had conversations since I became an adult where she is just apologized for things that she felt like she did wrong as a parent.

10:16 It even though my brother and I don't necessarily look at it that way because the people that we were raised around their parents raised, it is a big deal, but you know, now being able to look at some things a little bit differently. She's just she's at she's a very strong woman. She's a God-fearing woman. But like she instilled in me. Did his face, you know, this faith in God, no matter what? I'm going through that, I can always have faith and I always pray and I always know that.

10:56 I have gasoline on until I definitely got that Faith from her but she always been, she also told me to but faith without works is dead. And so she was like, yes, you can have sex, you can have faith that you're going to get a job. If you have to fill out the application to get the job. You can have faith that you're going to get a degree. Did you have to do that follows that face? And so my mom is kind of like our family matriarch. Now, you know, my grandfather has passed away. My grandma grandmother. Her mom has been gone for some years and my mom is kind of like looked up as the person that everyone comes to, you know, for advice, or if they need prayer or, you know, whatever. And I just looked at her and so many times, I just like sit at her feet and I soak up her wisdom.

11:55 Because what I have been able to learn from her has really kept me, you know, even being married for 22 years, you know, raising two kids and I can honestly say my husband and I, we would not have been able to raise our kids, without my parents. You know, my mom would owe, you know, one of the kids don't feel good and I don't want to go to work out.

12:25 Just the way she continue to parent and take care of and mother me, even as an adult.

12:32 And I have so much respect for that. You know, and I eating now, I have friends who are losing their parents or I have friends who their parents are here. You know, their mom is still be here. But now she's so deep into Dementia or Alzheimer's or whatever that she's unrecognizable and I just been God everyday for having my mother. She has been to me, so, I'm sorry.

13:09 So, I ask a question that this question.

13:23 So could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values?

13:31 Child and things is all over.

13:37 All right, and I say that say,

13:43 There are some things like,

13:47 And I can't give an example of this right now. So don't ask. Please look. Like there are some things that

13:53 Like that, the Republican party will stay make sense and I could be like, you know what? That makes sense, you know, let's not, you know, let's not do this thing or let's not spend all of this money in this space because it just doesn't make sense. It doesn't, you know, it it doesn't make sense and how are we?

14:19 How are we helping these people? Are we helping people to become more self-sufficient?

14:26 If we're just kind of throwing resources or giving things to people, you know, I'm saying just constantly by Mike. Okay, well

14:42 How to make the little thing and then sometimes I could look at the Liberals, the Liberals part of it and say,

14:51 Don't don't get too far, you know, so like I never I never vote straight ticket your then. I'm just was like I try to do what I can, but

15:03 I think the best way that I, I I could describe my politics really is, I always try to think.

15:13 What is right for the greater good? You know, what the hell is it going to best serve?

15:22 The greater good because it is sometimes that means I'm not going to be the person that's going to get a benefit out of it because I'm not in that particular situation. I feel like there are some things that we have to do as a country to support a group of people because it makes sense if they need it. And that might mean that everybody doesn't get it to. Like in some cases, we have to have policies in place. That makes sense that protect our country.

16:06 Isn't it? Sometimes I feel like we stayed the whole bunch of money protecting other countries.

16:13 But our country is in being protected it.

16:20 Is a little all over the place or a little scattered big. But I think the important thing is, how are we protecting our people that live in our country? How are we doing that? How we bet best serving our people? Why are our veterans still homeless?

16:41 Why do we still have poor people? That did they live so far? Be beat the below the poverty line in this country. Why? Why do we not have?

16:58 Better access.

17:01 Po secondary education. That doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

17:07 Like why? Why didn't why do that a thing? You know what I'm saying?

17:20 Yeah, this is a hard question for me, because I grew up in a religious context where my parents were just not involved in politics and they didn't know it was kind of not really certain hyper separation of church and state, you know, where in the world but not of the world. And so it was until I went to college, it's kind of embarrassing but it was until I went to college and somebody asked me if I was going to vote and I was like, why would I vote? And that was kind of the starting point in all sudden. I realize, wait a minute. I have been Mike out of the loop in my little man and I community that was not politically engaged. And so, I feel like I've been playing catch-up ever since.

18:15 But I think so. It was kind of that conversation. And then as I was thinking about this question, I realized, I think it was as I became more aware of Injustice.

18:28 Not just in our country, but around the world. So, when I was in college, I didn't enter term the two weeks thing, and israel-palestine, and learning about the conflict in his Rapala, stop sign. And then coming home, and kind of recognizing, you know, the political policies in our country and how that impacts people around the world. In a real people who are suffering the way. I think it was a growing awareness of Injustice and the suffering of real people. That's real people who are impacted by political policies and by politicians. And so I have absolutely come to realize how important it is to vote and should be more aware. And, and kind of like you, I feel like part of what motivates me is a concern for the common good.

19:21 And I think my heart is Tides pretty strongly toward toward people who are suffering, who are experiencing in a less than other people. And and I agree with you that I would ask you ask. Why why, why is that happening? And what is it at a political level? That's making that happiness, systemic level. And what can I what can I do to help alleviate some of that?

19:51 So, I

19:54 I'm kind of all over the map to. I kind of think of myself as independent. I am currently registered as a Democrat. I have to be registered as a republican. So I registered as independent. So I'm kind of tired. I don't want to align with with one or the other party because I feel like it things are just becoming more and more rigid. So I'm I'm always uneasy when I decide to register as a Republican or Democrat like cuz I feel like that's not

20:28 Real somehow and it's not helpful, but we're kind of stuck with this current system. And so,

20:36 Tell you why I laugh. I don't want you to think I was laughing at you because I like we're the same age where in Kansas, somebody else cuz I've been to Hutchinson before but I didn't have lunch with you though. Absolutely. When you said you didn't really register. Didn't re-register Republican Democrat. Republican liberal in something else. Just kind of changes.

21:24 Yes, because you live in Hutchinson. I'm familiar a little bit with her for more than just, the State Fair, of course, but

21:47 Being in your profession.

21:52 How do you feel like?

21:54 You have been challenged with the current climate of racial divide and

22:08 I would also throw like the sexuality pieces for the lgbtq, a being a midnight pastor and you throw black lives matter asian life matter. How did you get able to take care of your heart? Your heart? That's a lovely question.

22:43 You know, if they're there are times, I just want to stick my head in the sand, just stay there and not have to deal with all of those things that you just mentioned.

22:57 There's part of me that sometimes is resentful that I think I had no idea what I was getting into when I said yes to becoming a pastor.

23:08 And and I just continue to feel like I'm here for a reason. And what's most important is that I am authentic, and I try to be real and I try to follow where the spirit is moving me. So

23:30 You know, I've been doing a lot of reading about systemic racism. And and I I I kind of vacillate. I think it's a open. My answer between, just wanting to run and hide. And and then trying to figure out, okay, how, how do I communicate about this to? I have a elderly congregation not entirely actually, we've, we've gained some younger people during covid, and so I'm kind of got this group who are just beautiful. I mean, they have loved me and my family and just have been been lovely and are really pretty open-minded, folk deeply rooted, but they are there to have that big hearts. Men are very gracious.

24:22 And so I've got this mix in my congregation.

24:28 Your question was, how do I take care of my heart? I really have worked hard in the past couple of years to develop a pretty consistent meditation practice. That sounds really lofty. It's not. It's like if I can get five minutes every morning to just be quiet. I do practice centering prayer with a group twice a week, usually, but if I don't do it with a group, I don't manage to get it done but I recognized and have come to recognize more and more because of my personality. But I think also because of the deaths of the challenge of these issues. Like I just have got to be grounded and centered in Christ and in myself so that I'm not tossed to and fro by all these, all these things.

25:25 But it's hard. I mean I have thought so many times of quitting because it just just felt too heavy and I cuz I don't know what to do. I don't have the answers and nobody does. We've got a neighbor here at the church. She's got Trump signs, that are pretty rude and gas pain. And we have a sign on our church property that says, no matter where you're from. We're glad you're our neighbor. So it's been a real Challenge and opportunity really for us to figure out in this church where we say, we want to love our neighbors. How do we love, how do we love our neighbor?

26:07 We know when were offended by what he puts on his yard and maybe what I could say is I really have tried to shift, my thinking to, how can I see these things as opportunities opportunities for spiritual growth, for my congregation to grow and for us to be a blessing in our community and to each other. Even when we disagree,

26:39 Does that answer your question? I can get it resonates with me as well because I have recently started meditating a little bit more, but I'm going to ask you to not laugh at me cuz my meditation practice is not as

27:01 Probably fancy and sophisticated as yours.

27:10 I have the Calm app. I am, I am an HR director and I also own my own HR Consulting business. And so I cannot meditate in the morning. Cuz when I wake up in the morning, I am my busiest self. I wake up and start doing things that, you know, I need my coffee and

27:30 So for me it is best for me to meditate at night. So I used to call map and Tamara Levitt. Now last night's medication, got on my nerves she talked too much, but it is what it is.

27:47 What she said and getting your position and sit up with your back straight. I'm in my bed.

27:54 Sit with your back straight. I just straightened out even more.

28:07 Because I think in, you know, in today's climate.

28:13 I have a 20 year old son. And I have a 20 year old son. That has looked like a grown man since he was fifteen and

28:26 Every 4 years, you know every day my husband and I have our prayer is always that our baby comes back home, you know that he doesn't have a run-in with the police that he doesn't get caught up in any of the just stuff.

28:46 She just doesn't just caught up in the stuff that's going on in this world, but,

28:55 It is so hard.

28:58 Being the parent of a young black, man. You an idiot and I say that to stay. You know, I also had you know, of course, a brother. I have nephews. I have cousins, you know, I have my bonus sons that, you know, I've met, you know, through my son and stuff like that. So there's a piece of you that's always worried of you that is always concerned when they go out at night.

29:31 My son within a two-year. He's had over 16. People that he's known die. So these people have died before the age of 21 of them. She actually saw this guy, like, take a gun out and shoot him like the mrs. Not this wasn't even in a bad neighborhood, that he was buying a phone from another guy. And I guess the plan was to Rob them or whatever when I arrive. And so I worry about my son's mental health. Portant to me, but just him being out in the world him driving from point A to point B, you know, I always making sure Tina and you got

30:31 Michigan registration and spray. You got to make sure, you know, you got your driver's license. You got your, you know, your tag is what it is, what it is. And I just

30:54 You know, that is not a phone call that I want to get. That's not a knock on the door that I want to receive. And it is troubling. It is troubling troubles, your spirit. Just last week week before last and 16 year old girl was shot here in Wichita by nearly, so sometimes.

31:20 So much, even if you take away the political climate take that away, there's still so much.

31:31 The world and it beeps at you. If you don't have a meditation, some type of meditation, some type of therapeutic, something that you're doing to take care of yourself.

31:45 You will burst if I asked you that question a day, should remember, I know how much pressure we put on passes and we expect y'all to heal the world that need nothing.

32:16 How is your heart? How are you taking care of your heart?

32:23 I forget about you.

32:33 Yeah, that's why I asked.

32:40 Who's your spirit?

32:48 This morning at 10, so,

33:00 Oh, well, let me ask you a question quick for us. And then I'll tell you about my kids cuz I'm curious if you notice what difference it makes for you to do this meditation practice, as you carry, the thing, as you're a caring, with your pretty intense, too.

33:18 So I just recently started seeing a therapist again probably and she was like shooting hurting me. I need you to start doing something. I need to start journaling. That's why I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. I there's no way in the world.

33:48 Because I work in HR and it was a point. I was making to you, when I said I'm at HR Director. So, in the midst of all of this covid stuff, I guess it was a company that owns, they gave all HR people are free year membership to the cam at night. Like I tried to use it during the day and, you know, whatever. And I was like, I don't like this.

34:23 I would sleep so much better. I was it's like, I had so much peace and I would need to let it do the meditation app by the end of the day. I like, I would need that meditation. But in addition, to prayer in that meditation piece is very, very beneficial to me. You know, I am a person who is, I don't want to pay for nothing, extra cheese, hamburger. I got cheese at home on a bag and some shoes. So then that's a whole nother conversation, but I have decided that I'm going to

35:23 I feel like it, it help cleanse me from all of the heavy.

35:36 That's great. You figured out when to do the meditation.

35:54 I just went. Why do you talk so much?

35:59 Is it one time? I went to sleep on her blessing little harder than me. I know it's

36:15 20 year old is a girl. Magdalena is her name. She is a junior at Fresno, Pacific University in Fresno, California.

36:30 It was really kind of a extra special gift in my selfish opinion that she was home during covid-19 when covid it and she came home now and March of her freshman year, and then she was home all last year, and she's the kid who likes to be at home. So it actually I think was was quite okay for her. That my son is a nice when he's a senior here and Hutchinson and had chili, and then I have another son who's a junior and a freshman and then our youngest, who was a extra special surprise that we weren't exactly planning on. She is 8 +

37:17 Oh, wow, that's a lot of stages. A lot of Ages.

37:27 Hero gets in to get in the middle school or High School. Y'all going to be just like hey, you saw your brother cuz we really have it and condition Keenan, obviously or 10 years apart. And so it's like, we have to Tina and it was like

37:54 Do you need school supplies day? Are we supposed to buy our parenting or she would say lack of parenting. The youngest one really gets away with a lot is, what matters is from battle that don't matter? Like, at this point, if I was to have a kid now. Yes, you can wear your Halloween costume.

38:39 Unless we have picked so many things that we have made bigger things, bigger issues, and

39:02 Are you for real? You know what I'm saying? And if my daughter out, I really do my daughter out. And then with my son.

39:21 He just don't care cuz his attitude is it'll work itself out. If you did, you would know it was going to work itself out and how they supposed to be streamed.

39:49 What do you have for? What goals? Do you have for like the next couple years? What, what do you think? On your radar for the next?

40:04 I,

40:06 What a good question.

40:09 I would like to learn more specifically, I think.

40:16 I would like to become better and better Communicator. Particularly around these divisive hard topics. Be more comfortable engaging.

40:31 Particularly icing in my congregation but also in the community that is learning to be okay, with being uncomfortable. It's hard for me. I and I know that about myself. I I prefer things to feel calm and peaceful it and I can get upset when when that gets messed with. So I'm trying to be more engaged outside of my church more involved. So this year in January, I decided I'm going to start going to the n-double-acp meetings and that's going to be a huge learning curve. And, you know, it's okay. I think it's okay for me to to be comfortable. I don't like it very much. I'm comfortable, adding. I don't, I don't know. It's like it.

41:20 But I just recognized that I am recognizing, I think the extent of my privilege and the privilege of my kids have. And the fact that not every kid or adult has those privileges.

41:36 So trying to lean into not just by wanting to fall down on the floor. Bobby because it's such a mess but to be able to get up and do something about it in my small world, and that includes being willing to let you know, push push people in my congregation, which is also hard. It's such a weird roll when I'm there employee, but the pastor and you know, it's just an odd situation.

42:08 And to help my kids, you know to be able to be present to each of my kids, where they're at, cuz they're all at such different places and they're all so different in their personalities.

42:22 I have another goal that I could did. They would feel like I'm present and available to them.

42:31 How would you answer that question to?

42:40 I think one of my big goals is learning to be.

42:50 True. And loyal to myself. I am a very like I am a very loyal friend. Sister daughter wife. Like I will go to the ends of the Earth for everybody, but I won't do that for myself, learning to trust who I am learning to.

43:16 Learning to make taking care of me a priority and I and I am not going to say anything like, oh, I'm going to start working out there. That's not what I mean. I need my spiritual self in my mental self. Those are the things. Those are the components that I think that I said that because I give so much to everybody else that when it comes to me. I'm defeated and I didn't, and I don't have it to give until then when it gets to me. It's like

43:52 Either what I have is not enough or I don't have anything at all. So are they of me being in therapy and learning, you know, meditating in these things is to help me be more into and it in alignment with myself and in alignment with God, as well. So, those are the things right now. Also, I want to make sure that I'm giving back and not just giving back money wise, but giving of my time to look at a couple people, a couple young females, ask me like, hey, would you measure me? That it is a dozen?

44:36 Is it hit it? Bid is in it? So I had to sit down with a friend of mine and I get down and she started explaining who she sees me as a perspective. That's why they're asking you because this is who you are. And so, I had to receive that is so I want to start giving more back more of my time. You know, back to the community that two young women entrepreneurs. Because that's something that's very important to me as well.

45:23 Do you feel like is it a bigger issue that you give yourself permission to honor and take care of and nurture yourself? Or do you need people outside? I need to give you permission my husband. Make sure I get my nails and my toes done, and all of that stuff, but I need to, I have to allow myself.

45:58 Bit and take time to just be able to just be in my state that in my moment and in my time to reflect it be in a place to where I can sometimes just be quiet, you know, just be quiet and just be able to take in the Stillness of the moment for quiet and still. It is hard when I have struggled to 4 years to carve out that kind of space and to not feel guilty.

46:48 About it that I shouldn't be doing that for a long time. I think I just convinced myself. I couldn't like it just wasn't wasn't possible. But now you know, you're old, if I tell her, you know, I'm I'm going to go do my morning things was she knows means I'm going to sit and be quiet.

47:08 Don't say okay, Mom. I'll see you in a little while with our older kids. We can do what you can do with your younger child. Sure. Wish I would have done with my oldest. She could use that.

47:31 Nobody would have made me appreciate naps cuz I sure love naps now.

47:39 This was such a blessing. This was such a blessing, Well, I had a hard time getting on myself. So don't don't feel bad, guys. I just like you. Thank you so much.

48:14 Thanks for being so honest and and you have such great questions. You're good at that. Good question.

48:30 Yeah, like I can just feel your energy and like you are so authentic. You like. I don't want your your, your goal to 22 like really understand in to seek knowledge. You know, that is for dealing with in justices, in, in trying to understand. How do you could be a part of the solution and understanding how your privilege plays a part. And not a lot of times people don't intentionally use their privileged enough to wrap up. Yes.

49:22 Call, it's all good.