Bernard Kirchenbaum and Sara Kirchenbaum

00:03 My name is Sarah kirschenbaum. I'm 47. Today's date is February 14th 2007 and we are in the storycorps recording booths down at the World Trade Center site, and I am interviewing my father.

00:23 Hello, my name is Bernard kirschenbaum on 82. Today's date is February 14th, 2007 a location is.

00:34 Storycorps

00:36 And I'm the father of

00:40 Sara

00:42 So

00:44 When we were finishing up their last interview you we were starting to talk about how you met mom, but you just told the story about when when we weren't recording that I wondered if you could tell again, I'm amazing that when you were walking down the street and the one we must have been well-known and by then.

01:13 I think when this happened but by then we we had.

01:20 One of the four of us in the office plus some helper. So that must have been about I would say 12. But anyway when I would walk outside and walk down the street in Cambridge Mass and another architect was walking toward me on the same street when they saw me they would crossover go to the other side of the street.

01:45 Because we were considered.

01:49 Great.

01:51 Horrible people

01:53 Cuz she worked with with Buckminster Fuller and the domes and

01:59 Official considered the ruler of architecture and then you also said in the earlier recording that it was so hard for you to find a job because they heard your name and I knew you would work for Bucky.

02:16 So then this lovely woman named Susan wild asked you to build a dome for her and how did that go?

02:25 Well, it looks sort of complicated because

02:31 The one of the first things which was interesting was that so where she wanted me to build a dome with this little

02:40 Play Stoney Creek on.

02:44 In Connecticut on the on the sound and whatever across the

02:55 Southern level of all the land on Long Island Sound it was the only little town that didn't have any architectural standards.

03:10 So it as it turned out it may have been the only place it could have built the domes room.

03:20 So I am

03:23 She had one child and she already has. That's Chris.

03:33 We weren't we weren't married when I saw the Dome. We were not married and

03:40 What happened was I started?

03:47 I said let me give you some times of time. I started officially I started the dome in 1958.

04:01 The year before I was born part of the work of the Dome whenever before that was 1957 and even in 1956, I was working on the pattern and various things or whatever but

04:21 You must realize that they were it was everything was very different than it is. Now. There was no computers. One of the big problems was in doing the calculations on the Dome.

04:35 We had a

04:39 When we had our office we have to buy.

04:43 Big adding machine. That's all they had in those days. So you can only do a times b equals c you couldn't do

04:54 8 * b + C

04:58 So you have you have to do a x b and then Friday?

05:06 It's hard to believe that anyway end and I think we paid for the for the one that we had in Cambridge. I think we paid $3,500 for the 60 which now you can get for $2.

05:20 And so I started working on the Dome.

05:25 And the whole thing was just fraught with difficulties in whatever and but you know, I found a place to make did the dog.

05:40 Found a place

05:42 At one time there were two or three companies have a very interested in you know in the dome that we had one time was going to pay for everything and then I decided not to do it on GE and one time was going to make the kitchen and do everything in there was a lot of interest in firms. We were getting a little more known at the time when I was so I was going to go a little more

06:12 But anyway, so I worked on the Dome and started finishing up started doing the Dome and then sue had this friend.

06:29 I can't even think of her name now. Imagine her best friend.

06:35 Anyway, she had she knew someone in Long Island that wanted a dome.

06:40 It was the sky.

06:43 And I spoke to this guy and he had a lot of money.

06:48 And he wanted me to bill this dumb.

06:51 And so I took because it was a job. I took that job and so I have to hold off on Tuesday my little bit. But anyway, we decide to get married.

07:04 And we're going to get married at the site and the site. I had finished all the beams. So there was this star of this star pattern of that we can do that. This was raining so I had to get married on the island.

07:25 So now what's the Dome that you built for Mom? Was that the first residential geodesic dome in the country or were there other residential though? I'm sorry. It's a little hard to say, but they wear a few domes that were.

07:45 Sort of residential domes but not in the spirit.

07:51 I mean they were like regular houses, you know roofing material on a yeah.

08:05 Still no one knows about it, very few people know about it. I mean, I don't I'm not on there.

08:11 Internet about it, whatever they got they have everything wrong. Anyway, it was Bucky in the early days and whatever.

08:19 And no one seems to give a damn about it. Well worth getting information here.

08:26 Anyway, so then I was now the funny thing about it was this guy had this land in the place called Wading River and Wading River was just opposite the sound.

08:41 So you're building two domes I didn't have any.

08:51 Standards either

08:57 Is that other Dome exist at this point?

09:06 He died. It was given to the sun the sun sold it to a

09:15 The sun sold it to a

09:23 Hamburger joint hamburger Shack Burgers

09:33 Yeah, that's the sad part.

09:36 So what's the point you were doing? These two domes you weren't with Wainwright anymore. Where you so you're on your own.

09:42 If you continue to do domes, well, they did they did more.

09:53 Military domes and I didn't want to do any military down.

09:58 I just I just the thing I wanted to do is I Was An Architect and I wanted to do the architectural part and I thought there was more interesting and I didn't want to get stuck doing all these military out of the military and might hit the military.

10:14 You know, I just didn't I know I never liked the military, whatever so.

10:24 So instead of sad in a way that because I had all my friends up there, you know in Cambridge and whatever working and then a company had.

10:32 I know it ended up around 15 people in whatever the design for the Dome that you made for Mom. Was that a new designs that and there's something about parallel lines and the question was

10:52 When you do certain domes

10:55 You know the frequency the domes are usually done by the basic form is an icosahedron.

11:04 And so each face the 20 Faces of an icosahedron and each face is a regular triangle.

11:12 And by how many times you divide it up that regular triangle is considered the frequency of the Dome, so

11:25 A few of the domes had a horizontal

11:29 Add an actual horizontal line frequency horizontal line, but when you go above the horizontal line below the horizontal line those lines are not horizontal so you can if you wanted to cut some to place a dome on another level and if you wanted to make that parallel you'd have to make all those triangles different so I decided that I would try to make some domes that

12:00 Did away with that and had parallel line to them and that's what's my invention ever my discovery.

12:09 Now you jumping ahead but do you also developed a very famous pattern?

12:17 Well, I was always involved in knowing job easily on Geometry and whatever and I had this idea of that.

12:27 Because Adam was five.

12:34 5

12:36 Pointed

12:38 I thought it would be nice to get some kind of a pattern that would work just like squares and in a rectangular structure. So I started fooling around with sayings and I discovered this.

12:55 Thing that I could do that with a with a couple of different.

13:03 Figures shapes shapes diamonds

13:07 And I realize that it was pretty unusual. I told Harry Blum about it and everyone about it and

13:15 I asked her if she'd help me write a letter to there was this guy at the Scientific American that used to do this mathematics all the time and I always got mad but she never helped me to write him this thing and whatever. I knew it was important, but about 15 years later then Rose came out with the thing and now it's now known as Penrose pattern. It should be cursing bounce back and was known as kind of Primrose tiles.

13:43 So that was sort of curious whatever. That's okay. I don't mind but how did you make the transition from architecture to sculpture?

13:54 Well, that was sort of interesting because

14:00 We had moved down to.

14:04 Chinatown

14:06 A gene hedge at a

14:13 I was living in that place On Bleecker Street one day I decided to go and see Jean hedge. So I got in the car until we got a car then I got in the car and I decided to the route that I took past the gallery now, that's Gallery which was which was Paula Cooper.

14:40 Pace Park Place

14:47 Which was originally on Park Place downtown, but then it moved up to Lafayette Street.

14:55 Mount Lafayette Street

15:00 So what happened was I was?

15:04 I wish I had taken that route to go to Jean Hedges. And when I pass that Gallery I said to myself to go into that gallery and then I went through three more blocks and then I said no damn it. You want to go into that Gallery? So I

15:20 Look around and parked. Illegally. I remember and I went into that Gallery. There was no one there.

15:27 It opened but there was no one there.

15:31 And then you know by then I was working for Edison and I was doing a lot of work.

15:37 What The Hell Tour of Cali

15:40 And various people with helping Ellsworth. What did you help him? I did all his original.

15:48 Sculptor, but as I was walking out of the gallery.

15:56 These two guys came in and they were guys that I had met up at the Edison's working with elsewhere and they said to me something they took me downstairs in the basement where they had

16:13 Made a model of a sort of little city. And the reason for the model of the little city was that people that wanted to do sculpture could make a little sculpture and stick it somewhere in this is how it worked out and I thought

16:31 So

16:34 But the person that really helped me was Frosty that and what's his full name Forrest Meyers. What happened was I became friendly with him.

16:45 And after meeting him then he was one of the two or is one of the

16:54 The other guy can't remember the other guy's name, but he died from taking too much dope.

17:01 And

17:06 They had a

17:11 A show where they had people invited people to do things in Frosty asked me to make a piece that piece with

17:26 The neon light

17:31 My memory is at peace is you were doing some photographing of that piece and you had me hold up a piece of paper or cloth in front of the window. And I peeked in there was a naked man standing in the middle of that sculpture.

17:50 The pain in the ass.

17:54 He just took off his clothes and

17:57 Student

18:03 No.

18:05 So that was your first piece that for sculptural piece.

18:10 And was that at Park Place gallery?

18:16 And what did you think of doing sculpture? How did that feel was that?

18:25 So what was next?

18:29 Can you have a show of model domes that Paula Cooper in Frosty we're together.

18:40 And I used to

18:43 I mean she was very

18:45 Lenient with me this I used to go out on this every night, you know, really and I go out drinking and and mostly I would go with the tombras and she'd have had a loft and there's always people there you no, man ever.

19:04 I got to know everybody.

19:07 Bernard world

19:14 Anybody that went on to be

19:17 Important in the

19:26 So what was your next show you did after the so we had a show together who did?

19:36 That's when I made that poster.

19:40 Artist her stuff on one side my stuff on the other side.

19:45 So what I remember about that poster is it you could cut it up and build a dome in that a lot of hippies actually took that and use that to actually build you to succumb.

19:57 But I did help other hippies with actual with actual.

20:03 Give him a technical assistance.

20:07 So then at this point to do do anymore architecture was a purely onto sculpture from then on.

20:19 No, I when I married Sue I didn't do any r o yeah, I did architecture.

20:25 But not I didn't have my my main my big job that I had but I had I work in we need money. So I then I would take these jobs, you know.

20:37 People drew in those days. You needed someone to draw, you know, it wasn't like the computer or whatever. You needed a draftsman.

20:54 Getting a little mixed up, but

21:01 So Mom.

21:04 Simone was doing painting of the time.

21:10 Yeah, she was painting at the time.

21:14 Christopher she had Christopher when I married the first mitsui Christopher was 6 +

21:27 And then when we got married, I think Crystal was seven there when you had me Christopher was 8 and where you at Edison's at this time. And what was that like

21:41 Well, it's rather fascinating Edison price Incorporated. What happened was I needed?

21:50 I was trying to figure out how to what to do. Whatever.

21:56 And remember

22:03 Oh, I know I got it now. I know I do remember I do remember I was up at so I had made a friend and in West Hartford that did all my

22:14 Made my

22:18 Thanks for for the domes of the Cubs.

22:31 He was my great help because he he really wanted to be an architect. And so he had this idea that we could do this these great things together, but you was marvellous Grassman than whatever.

22:45 When I went there this shop had 13 people when I

22:50 Well, anyway, they get bigger after that.

22:57 But

23:03 So I was I was at the up there in the shop one day and the phone rings and Andy Ant meal picks it up and it says it's for you.

23:14 And I pick up the phone and it's Addison.

23:18 Hello.

23:21 I'd like to build a dome on my roof. Anyway, what happened was he called?

23:31 Somehow he got involved with people from Museum of Modern Art and they knew about me.

23:37 And they told him.

23:41 You should talk to Bernie kirschenbaum. He's the one that builds domes and whatever.

23:46 So he called me so I went down to see he was moving into this new building which is what I remember that. A greenhouse before the greenhouse was just a flat roof. That's what he wanted me to build and he also was going to say was going to be alcohol on whatever and I'll call again refused.

24:13 They always got to a point and then they are when they were afraid that if they actually built something instead of selling it to people to build something that people would get upset because they were in the village they would just extruders.

24:29 They felt that the people that they sold to

24:36 So

24:39 Nothing hot. Well, we I think I grew up something in the whatever and then

24:45 One time I needed a job.

24:49 I called him up and says.

24:52 Do you want to is there any job that I can get up there? And he said sure cuz that started my 30 years relationship with Addison.

25:03 And I worked at three separate times and he fired me three separate times, which is terrific, but then I got unemployment.

25:14 He's very good to me.

25:17 Doesn't sound like it firing you through that over.

25:26 So of all your pieces that you've done all your sculptures, what are some that you are happiest with?

25:35 Oh, that's a good question. I don't know.

25:44 I guess that big sculpture that I did in Sweden.

25:48 The one that I saw with the big brown tubes

25:56 The concrete one

26:02 What do you like about it?

26:04 I'll just one of the kinds of things I wanted to do. I mean it.

26:09 Sort of a mixture of sculpture and architecture in a way.

26:15 What are some of the other pieces that you feel are successful?

26:21 Oh, I don't know.

26:24 I can't think of any.

26:26 Right now my mind's a blank. I love the piece that you did and Sweden in the old factory of Nobel.

26:39 Oh, yeah that you like those tubes.

26:45 So are there any pieces that you have in your mind now that you'd like to send a couple of what idea that I have is that I wanted to do this whole display of work.

27:02 Maybe about 10 different pieces, but all the same piece.

27:09 But all different sizes, so

27:12 One piece might be even microscopic and the other piece.

27:19 Building sizes

27:25 So that different feelings and I don't do sculptural sculptors do just to make sent you make a piece. You know, I have a concept that I'm working on and I like to

27:38 Do a piece that

27:43 Explorers that concept, you know a scale scale or proportion. What makes what makes your sculpture in your approach different than others. What is your particular? I don't know what I think it is.

28:03 The

28:07 I think I'm mean people haven't exploded on the enough but there I never do anything without some underlying a concept.

28:22 I mean like that.

28:25 Love those piece that is

28:29 Does curved curved piece of mail in the two cars, please?

28:40 It will have to do with eight eight eight. The number eight. How how well, it's for 8 x 8 inches.

28:58 So you tell me how you go from the process of thinking of a sculpture and then building it at the Eyrie. So they serve each one has a has a theme almost a secret. What are some of the things you've done? Can you think of all the colors are different colors with the whites where you can hardly tell the colors? What was the thing in there?

29:24 Well, the theme one of the themes was I I did.

29:30 I did some metal pieces where if you remember that.

29:34 They were two sets of pieces one made a three-dimensional piece one made a flat piece on the wall in the same pieces of metal. But whether you put them on the wall, or build them into a three-dimensional sculpture, and I noticed that people came in and some people notice that they were the same pieces.

29:54 And some people didn't notice if they were the same pieces. This is a flat piece on the wall in this was a three-dimensional piece.

30:04 So then I decided to do some of these color pieces like that where it was the spectrums of whites, but very subtle and it is amazing how many painters?

30:20 Didn't notice the color of you is a pretty Democratic person, but it sounds almost like some of the sculptures you're describing our kind of elitist and that only some people that only some people can even see what's going on.

30:40 I tend to be that way. How do you reconcile that with your politics? Which are much more?

30:54 So

31:01 So now that I got my studio all fixed up. I'm going to make some of these things but like what do you have in mind?

31:12 But once I get going I and I will.

31:17 How long does it take for you to go from having an idea about a sculpture going to do to it in assertive more materializing like sculptures? You've done have they been in your mind for 20 years or is it?

31:33 Well, somehow someway somehow but I mean mostly I I I don't work quite that way. I I sort of changes I work as I work and I get an idea and then you start to do something and then I should doing if you

31:47 Change it a little bit.

31:50 How many ideas are rattling around in your head now that not too many?

32:03 In my case. I don't think it's a matter of ideas. I think it's a matter of

32:08 Figuring out

32:11 How to make the song right I like the saw something, you know.

32:17 Which probably throws you a hug beside the other a couple of things that are interesting to me for instance?

32:25 Most people most sculptors make sculpture without any

32:32 Interest in the surface of the material

32:38 So a lot of sculptors take a piece and put it outside and let it rust.

32:44 I think that's a little silly. Anyway, I mean you hear you have a whole surface. So then I decided to do this do some of these ideas and whatever and this one i d r i have I don't know if I told you whatever about this idea, but it's this piece of metal.

33:04 Which is about 12 feet high and maybe a hundred feet long last night, and it's perforated.

33:14 And it can either be all perforated the same or can be perforated.

33:21 So you can see through if there's little holes you can see through to the other side. Okay when you come up close to it.

33:31 You can see what's on the other side you only see what's in a certain way back to it.

33:39 Then you can see what's on the other side or if you go all the way closed and put your I write to that you do, you know.

33:53 I never got to do it.

33:58 So maybe that's something you you want to do once the Studio's functioning.

34:08 That's one thing I've had in my mind for years, but there are other things also.

34:16 What it's worth considering a recording this for posterity. What do you think are some things that are important for people to understand about you and your work that you would like to be known to be understood about your body of work as a Sculptor.

34:40 Well, I wanted and I think I would like people to think that what I do is very intellectual.

34:48 In addition to trying to make something physical.

34:52 I would like people to realize that I say it is an intellectual piece.

35:00 Cuz a lot of sculptures you don't think of that work as an intellectual piece at all.

35:08 Any other sculptors come to mind that are intellectual and their work?

35:17 Anything else you want people to understand about your work though?

35:28 Anything that come to mind that you that you want to say here in our last few minutes.

35:35 Tell me a little bit about mom then. I'll switch to Mom. What's tell me?

35:41 Tell me what you think of mom. Well, I think she uses most incredible.

35:47 Create a person.

35:50 I never could understand why she's not one of the most famous artist in the world.

35:56 But she's on her way now.

36:01 Anything interesting thing about hers. Is it sort of the opposite of me is that

36:08 When you look at her work, I mean there's nothing precise about it. I mean you but that's the interesting part because

36:15 Not many people can be able to do that. You know, they would drag themselves down by.

36:23 Where you put something I want ever that is not her.

36:27 And if you think of early Bob Bob rauschenberg

36:40 I mean she did just what he did and he never did what he did so came from her. So I guess I can't say that I mean Bob is very bright and very I mean super talented.

36:55 But there must be some mean they work together. I mean

37:01 I think she gave him that looseness. You know, that is something that she gave them to see them together.

37:11 I don't know if you've ever seen them together very much 30 years. I think I've seen.

37:23 And she's the only one I mean with all the people that are there with him and whatever, you know and being clever and whatever. They're the only one that's the same.

37:34 The soulmates aren't they?

37:43 So how is it to be married to this woman know I mean it in a good way you can meet.

37:58 What kinds of things she's giving me my freedom which I needed.

38:03 But you're very rare for women to to do.

38:07 I mean I never

38:11 Did anything bad I never liked all my time and sweet and I never took up with a woman or whatever and believe me. I had plenty of opportunity.

38:21 So I've always been.

38:24 I think I'm a third marriage you tend to be more like that then.

38:28 You know.

38:31 So

38:34 I think she's terrific.

38:39 So very lucky to have both of you as parents pretty amazing.

38:48 I'm coming over. I'm the last couple minutes and he saying that you got a lot of it covered. I wanted to talk a little bit about.

39:00 How the old men of manufacturing world but I don't think we have time but that's that's a world that you were involved with. That's all gone now, but maybe another time we'll talk.

39:17 Okay, that is okay.