Brave Voices founder Cheryle Gail interviews and Donna Bulatowicz

00:03 All right, welcome, Welcome. I am Cheryle Gail founder of Brave Voices. I am here in Murphy's, California. I am 59 years young, and I am with.

00:19 I'm Donna Bulatowicz and I am currently in Billings, Montana, and I'm 45 years young.

00:26 All right. And we are both here voluntarily, and we are breaking the silence that has perpetuated childhood sexual abuse for generations. So we both, and all of us Brave Voices, care more about the future generation of children than we do about anything anybody may think about us or say about us. This is our lived experiences, and we are sharing them because we're going to learn from each and every. I like to say that every story is the same and every lived experience is absolutely, completely unique. And we want to learn from each one. We want to know, how did this happen? What were the ramifications of having experienced this harm? How did we heal and move through what. What had happened to us? So that's basically the arc of what we're going to do today. And I thank you for being a Brave Voice and sharing this and, and, and for anyone listening who has some triggers or some strong emotions that come alive while hearing this, please take care of yourself, stop the video, come back to it, get some support, watch it with somebody else. We at Brave Voices believe it's the responsibility of each and every one of us to care for ourselves when we're struggling and having memories. So whatever comes up. But we also believe that it's more important to tell the absolute truth of what happened and the graphic details, unfortunately, because when we hear the word abuse, when we hear the word assault, that means nothing. When we hear, for me personally, my brother, while I was asleep, put his penis in my mouth and ejaculated. That is going to have a more profound effect, I sure hope, on humanity to say, oh, my goodness, this is what is happening to our children. And I hope it's enough to make the world stop and pay attention and say, no more silence. We are going to address this issue, which is around the world, an epidemic. So what I ask is that people describe what happened as if a video recorder was filming it or if we heard an audio. So everything that we do at Brave Voices is under the umbrella of non violent communication, compassionate communication. We attempt very hard to not make an enemy image out of those who harmed us for so many reasons, because we want to understand how does this cycle. Because we know it's a generational trauma. So, yeah, in saying all of those words, do you have any questions before we start?

03:58 No.

03:59 All right. So just starting from however you would like to go about sharing what happened to you as a child?

04:12 I was in upper elementary school, and one year my best friend had just moved like over 300 miles away. And so I was upset and feeling lonely. It was the first time I was going to school without her. And all of our upper elementary teachers were brand new to the school. So I didn't know anything about my teacher really, other than her name and that I had briefly met her the previous day when she had made me feel very uncomfortable. We had been told that all the class lists had changed. So my brother and I, my younger brother, ran to the school to check out the class lists. And while we were playing on the playground after that, she came out to me. She looked kind of like a linebacker. She looked pretty hard. And she made a beeline for us when she saw me ignored. My brother told me I looked like I was in the grade she taught. She mentioned the grade I affirmed I was, said my name, and she got really excited because I was in her class and I noticed her looking me up and down. It was a hot summer day and I had thrown on some clothes that were a little too small because I was a kid running around the summertime. Sometimes I ran around in my swimsuit. I wasn't in my swimsuit that day, but she was looking me up and down.

05:34 How old were you? I know you said elementary school, but.

05:38 Upper elementary, I'm trying not to say the exact age. Upper elementary is fourth grade through sixth grade.

05:47 Got it? Yep. Thank you. Yeah. And where. What state was this?

05:52 In? Montana.

05:54 This was in Montana. Okay. Thank you.

05:56 You're welcome. And it made me really uncomfortable. She never said a word to my brother. But when I wanted to leave because I was uncomfortable, she told me that she looked forward to having me that year. And it just struck my ears as odd. And my brother, as we were running away, said, your teacher's really weird.

06:18 So you both had some intuitive, instinctual, uncomfort discomfort. That's. Yeah. And this is the thing that over and over and over again, I like to point out because this is the intuition that protects us and that I'm hoping adults will listen when children speak about this discomfort that they intuitively sense.

06:49 Absolutely. And that was my first big thing, was I didn't feel comfortable around her, but I thought I was overreacting because I didn't know her and because my best friend wasn't going to be there. So I kind of ignored it. When we got to school the next day, we get into our classroom. She had us line up and introduce ourselves to her. And she introduced herself to us and welcomed us to the school year personally. There were only about 14 kids in my class, sometimes 15, depending on one, kind of was in and out. And she held onto my hand when she shook my hand a lot longer than she did others. So much so that the girl behind me commented when she got in the classroom after me, she's like, oh, our new teacher has a crush on you.

07:41 Wow.

07:43 And I, of course, was like, oh, shut up. She does not. And we went to our desk, put our stuff away. The teacher introduced herself and said some things about her, welcomed us to the school year, said what we'd learned, and then said she wanted to get to know us. So she said she had a piece of paper that she handed out that was like the basic getting to know you thing, like hobbies and family members you live with and do you have any pets? That kind of thing. And that she would go around and talk to each of us. When she got to my desk, she put her hand on mine and said, you're the prettiest little girl I've ever seen. So I, like, pulled my hand away. I've never had an adult that to me like, that quickly or anything, that I was the prettiest little girl I'd heard I was pretty, but not that. And it creeped me out, especially because she followed that up with, what do I need to know about you other than that you're absolutely gorgeous? And I couldn't talk. It was like she had just stolen the words away from me. And it felt like there were snakes squirming around in my stomach. I was so incredibly uncomfortable. And then she put her hand on my cheek and rubbed my cheek with her thumb and said, oh, are you shy, my little girl? And I jerked my face away and just nodded, hoping she would leave me alone. And she went around to everybody else, and things like that happened a lot. That first day, the second day, when we came into the classroom, she'd rearranged all the desks. Mine was no longer up front. It was in a corner where there was a bookcase right behind me, a bulletin board right to my right, people ahead of me, and then someone way over to my left so she could kneel down to the left of me and nobody could see where her hands were. And that day, when she came to talk to me when I was working on an assignment, she asked if I needed help. She was playing with the bottom of my shorts. And then slid her Hand up inside and brushed me between the legs the next day.

10:06 How very scary.

10:08 It was terrifying. And I didn't know what to tell my parents.

10:12 Yeah.

10:13 Because I had been taught about sexual abuse. My dad was a social worker and actually was one of the people who helps start the sexual abuse task force in this county. Yeah. He did a lot of good things for a lot of people and helped a lot of kids with the other people, of course. But I'm partially breaking up my dad. But I knew what sexual abuse was. But I had never been taught that a woman could sexually abuse a kid. It was always talked about. The abuser was always talked about as he and him and a man. And never presented as a teacher.

10:53 Yeah.

10:54 So I'm autistic. I, you know, take things. Some things very literally. So I didn't know what she was doing.

11:04 Yeah. So I just want to slow it down and really point out and say again that I'm hearing you say your father was on the. Started the task force for sexual abuse prevention in your area, and you were taught about sexual abuse, but not by a woman and not by a teacher. Yeah. So we definitely see. This is why we do the recordings, because we want. It's not only men. Yeah. Thank you.

11:36 Welcome. Thank you for emphasizing that, because that definitely impacted me later, especially when I tried to tell. So then the third day of school, she flipped up my skirt, and I spun around, and I wasn't wearing any tights under it, just underwear. And she's like, oh, I was getting lint off your skirt. And then she came up to me, put her arm around me, and teased me in a mean way for having reacted. Like, my cheeks were so red. She's like, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. I'm a girl, too. I've seen panties before. I even wear them. And that kind of, like, made me feel like she was making fun of me.

12:19 Yeah.

12:20 For being embarrassed and gaslight. As an adult, I know the word gaslighting.

12:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just want to go back because I heard you say you didn't know how to tell your parents. So after the first day, there was something inside you. You were wanting to talk to your folks about what happened. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

12:44 Yes. They, of course, asked me and my brother how school was, and my brother talked first, and he talked a lot. And then they asked me, and I was kind of quiet. I said that I miss my best friend. I miss Jennifer. And then they asked me about my teacher, and I was quiet. Because I couldn't think of how to put it into words. And so I just said, she's kind of pushy because to me, her touching my body when I very clearly did not want her to touch my body.

13:20 Yeah. Yes.

13:22 And, you know, they didn't hear what I thought I was communicating, of course, because adults think differently than kids. And so they thought I meant, like, she was too authoritative or something like that, or authoritarian or something like that, and told me to give her a chance because she was new to the school.

13:41 Okay.

13:42 Which, you know, is normal for parents to say.

13:44 Yeah.

13:47 And then the third. The third day of school, too, after she had flipped up my skirt, she kept me in the next recess and said that when she had flipped up my skirt, she had never. She had gotten lint off my skirt. She had noticed that some elastic on my panties was loose, and she didn't want me to lose them running around on the playground, which, of course, I'm like, oh, my gosh, horrified. Because that would be very traumatic for a kid, especially a really shy kid like me. And so when she asked if she could check, I was like, yeah. You know, she was a woman. She was a teacher, she was a mom, and I trusted her. She wasn't checking with her eyes. She was checking with her fingers. And she put her fingers inside the top of my panties, and I, like, kind of leaned back. And then she put her fingers in elastic around my legs and brushed her fingers between my legs, and I jumped and ran. At that point, I didn't care anymore if there was loose elastic. Everything in me was screaming, get away.

14:55 Good for you, listening to that. And how lucky. So many of us absolutely freeze and you were able to run away. I'm so glad.

15:06 Me, too. That she followed me out to the playground. I think she was nervous because I ran and I ran right to a group of friends, and so she pulled me away, and she said that she was sorry if she upset me. She just thought of me as her child, and she didn't want her little girl being embarrassed. And then she just. She stayed out on the playground. She didn't have playground duty because she had just had it that morning, and they never had two in a day. And she watched me. Every time I looked at her, she was looking at me. Then, interestingly enough, in pe, the gym teacher was not someone any of us girls were comfortable around. He wanted me to climb up the rope, and I, you know, didn't have anything on under my skirt. So I was like, no, everybody's going to see My underwear. And he told me if I didn't climb up the rope because he was doing some kind of test, that I would fail. And so I started crying, and he told me to sit down and shut up. So I did. And I don't know if someone went and got my teacher or if she just happened to walk by, but she saw me crying, and so she knelt in front of me and asked me what was wrong. I told her, you know, what had happened? And she looked thunderous. Like, her face. She was seriously pissed. And I thought I was in trouble. So I shrank back from her and said, are you mad at me? And she said, no, I'm mad at him. And she went over and she started screaming at him for. Basically, she was saying that he was making failing a little girl for not showing him her underwear, which she was not wrong. And she told him never to do that again. And she took me out of there. So at that point, I'm looking at her as my savior. Yeah, because she protected me from that gym teacher. And she definitely took advantage of me being so grateful to her and pulled me onto her lap in the classroom, and she was comforting me, and I didn't pull away that time. She had tried to pull me onto her lap a few other times, and I had slid right off.

17:26 And you're alone at this time?

17:28 Yeah, we were alone in the classroom, and she gave me a little bracelet for being such a good little girl and making her so happy. And I was just, like, very confused. And I didn't really want to put the bracelet on, but she was watching me. And then that was also when she found out that my dad was a social worker, because one of the other girls said to me when they came back from P.E. are you going to tell your dad? And I was like, I don't. I don't know, because nothing really happened. And my teacher was like, tell her dad why? And she said, oh, Donna's dad's a social worker. And I said, yeah, he helped found the sexual abuse task force here. And I found out that she called my parents after school to tell them what an amazing child they had. I was so bright, one of the smartest people she'd ever met. She knew I wanted to be a teacher, so she asked if she could mentor me and keep me in at recess sometimes to help her with bulletin boards and lesson plans and to. And have me come in early or stay late. And, of course, my parents are thrilled someone's taking this interest in their child.

18:55 This is such a clear description. Of typical grooming, isn't it?

19:01 It is. And I never realized that until I was an adult and started looking into it.

19:08 Yeah, I just want to point that out and say that out loud. That what you're describing, for those who are listening, is that this. When you hear the word grooming, this is what happens. This is what the people often do that are harming children.

19:23 Absolutely. And so my parents were excited and had me go into school early the next day because she said she wanted me to help her. And all she ended up doing was pulling me onto her lap and telling me she was so sorry my best friend had moved, which made me cry. She figured out the day before that if I cried, I would let her hold me. And then she said that we could be best friends. And I was like, but you're a grown up. And she said, and you're so grown up for your age. And so she kept pleading and wheedling and everything until I finally said, okay. And then she shared a secret with me. She told me that. She told me that she doesn't have a big limit on her credit card. Like, what kid understands that? So she's like, I only have 250 limit on my credit card because I make bad decisions.

20:23 Huh.

20:24 And I have bad credit. I was like, that didn't mean anything to me. 250 sounds like a fortune to a kid.

20:31 How interesting.

20:33 So that was one of her secrets that she told me. And then she told me she didn't get along with her younger brother. And then she wanted me to tell her secrets. So this kind of thing, it just kept escalating until the third week of school. She started calling different things she did with me games. Like she wanted to play a tickling game to see where I was most ticklish. And the third week of school, she said she wanted me to stay in at recess to play a new game with her. She wanted to play a game to show me how much she loved me. So she locked the door, classroom door. She had already had all the blinds pulled down. She pushed this, that bookcase that was right next door. She pushed it in front of the door, so even if someone had a key, it would have been harder to get in. And then she took me over to her chair. She sat down in her chair, and she stuck her thumbs in my underwear and pants and pulled them down and made me pull up my legs so that I could step out. And I was in shock. I did not understand what she was doing. I was absolutely horrified. She told me to sit on her Lap. And she started touching me between the legs. And I could not understand what she was doing. I didn't know why she would want to do that. Felt like I was underwater. I now know I was in shock.

22:06 Yeah.

22:07 Everything seemed muffled and distorted, and I just couldn't do anything. I couldn't move. I couldn't talk. It felt hard to breathe.

22:17 Frozen in fear. Yeah.

22:21 And I was absolutely terrified whenever she decided she was done. Also, she was smiling, which I felt like I was shattering, and she was smiling. And after she dressed me, she carried me over to my chair and set me down, and I curled up and fell asleep because I couldn't deal with it. I just flat out could not deal with what had just happened. I didn't understand what had just happened. And it was horrifying. She molested me a few more times that week. One time, when I tried to flee, she grabbed me tightly by the arms and left bruises on me. So I learned very quickly not to flee when she wanted to do that. The week after that, she totally stripped me and she laid me on a table and she pushed my legs up, almost like, you know, frog pose for yoga, except you're on your back instead of your stomach. And she orally molested me. And I did not understand why anybody wanted to do that. And she stuck her fingers inside me while she was doing that. It hurt. It freaked me out. And then I was incredibly upset when I now know I had an orgasm. She. Well, she named it for me, but I didn't understand what it was. She deliberately gave that to me and told me it meant that I liked it. And she also said to me, now I know why people enjoy having sex. That was the best sex I've ever had. And then I went in my head, I went, oh, she's sexually abusing me. Until then, I didn't get it. She had already threatened me by then that she'd kill my pets, I had two dogs, that my family would abandon me and that no one would believe me that she'd ruined my life, etc. If I told. So I was too scared to say anything to anyone, if I could have even found the words to describe it, because, I mean, I knew basic sex ed, but I didn't know anything about oral sex until she did that to me. I didn't know anything about a woman to two females. And I didn't have words to say she did this. Plus, that was extremely humiliating and embarrassing.

24:50 Yeah. Yeah.

24:52 It quickly escalated to her molesting me multiple times a day. She would keep Me in at recess or lunch when, you know, she wasn't on duty and when there's so many kids that it wouldn't be noticed I was missing. She'd sometimes keep me in from specials. She would sometimes leave the class alone with a big assignment to do and take me to another room, like an empty classroom that she had a key for. And the storage closet that she had a key for. Molest me in there. She would make me orally pleasure her. She taught me how to do that. I often threw up after that because it just. It totally grossed me out and it was so horrifying to me. I learned various sexual positions, etc. From her. She called me her girlfriend. And she continued. Other kids called me her girlfriend too. She told me she was in love with me. And she would tell me stuff about her husband and her family life that she never should have said. Like, she said she had to get drunk to have sex with her husband because she hated it so much. And at the end of the year, she told me that I was abandoning her and she was really mad at me. She said I needed to come visit her over the summer. She made me memorize her address and her phone number. She did not live too far away. She also threatened to kidnap me. She told me of a place in the mountains she wanted to go where we wouldn't be found. And I believed she was capable of that. I still believe she was capable of that. She never did, thank goodness. The next school year, it hit me that she could be hurting another little girl. So as soon as that entered my head, I was like, I need to tell. I need to tell. So a few days after that, because I was trying to figure out how I decided. School counselor. So I went to the school counselor, dropped hints, like I first said, that I was thinking a lot about my teacher from last year. And I just wanted to talk it out. And then finally I said. She put her arm around me and she put her hand on my chest. And the school counselor said. Reiterated what I said and then said, you do realize that sexual abuse, right? And I said, yes. And she asked if the teacher had done any more to me. And I nodded and just absolutely lost it. I was crying so hard. She. Then I. She left the room to call. She let you know when she asked me if it was okay if I wanted her to stay or if she could go make a phone call. I don't know if she called the police first or if she called my parents first, but she let them know my parents were amazing. I got very lucky.

28:12 Oh, fantastic.

28:15 They believed me immediately. They had wondered why my behavior had changed so much the previous year. Because I had gotten to the point where I was extremely startled. If there was any loud noise, I jumped. And I hadn't been jumpy before. I was very quiet. I was very angry, very sad. Just not the same child. And so they immediately told me they believed me and they were so sorry. And then they said they were getting me therapy, and I got in as soon as possible to my dad. Already knew who the best person was in our area. So I lucked out.

29:01 Yeah.

29:01 When I talked to the police. Not so lucky, huh? The police.

29:07 Before you go on about that, I just want to say that, you know, this is a case where your father worked in the. In the industry and had taught you, and as a child, you still didn't know how. And, you know, it's like, how can we expect a child to be able to talk about this even when adults are talking about it? Right. I mean, we just have to be so clear about. Yeah.

29:41 We need to let children know other ways to tell, such as through drawing or through using dolls or something else. And we have to listen to kids all the time, because when they're telling us things, they're telling us things that are really important to them. It may not seem important to us adults, but it's important to the children. And if we listen to those, they'll share the bigger things with us.

30:10 Yes. Listen, listen, Listen to the kids. Yeah. Thank you. I just really wanted to slow that down.

30:17 Yeah, that's okay.

30:20 Yeah.

30:23 So when I went. Talked to the police and started telling them some things that she did, they told me a woman wouldn't molest a girl.

30:32 Wow.

30:34 They didn't ask me what I now know are very basic questions like, does she have any identifying marks? Which she did. And that would have been evidence. They were just kind of very dismissive of everything I said. They made fun of me for having. At least that's how I interpreted it at the time. Having fragmented memories. Why didn't I remember the whole thing from beginning to end? And I didn't know how to answer that. I was a kid.

31:09 Yeah.

31:10 I didn't know that. That's what happens with trauma memories.

31:14 Yeah. Yeah.

31:16 And clearly they didn't either, or they chose. This was 1991.

31:26 1991. Okay. That. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to get clarification. Did you say they didn't ask if she had? They did not. Okay. They did not ask. Okay. All right.

31:42 And I found out later, that was a very basic question because my dad was very upset that they had not asked that and that they hadn't asked other things that they should have, which I don't remember now. That was just the one that really stuck out in my mind. They did a very. Just precursory investigation. They pulled me back in for another interview and asked if I was sure she had done that because she denied it. So I said to them, how many pedophiles tell the truth right away.

32:25 Wow. You knew the word pedophiles.

32:27 Because of my dad.

32:29 Okay.

32:33 And they didn't answer that. And then they also said that she was so upset by what I was accusing her of that she threatened to commit suicide and that if she did, it would be my fault.

32:49 And they told you this?

32:51 Yes.

32:52 Wow.

32:53 So that I needed to make sure I was actually telling the truth. And I told them I was. And that's when I added some things that they hadn't asked. Like I said, there were other teachers who saw her have her hands where they shouldn't be.

33:09 Okay.

33:09 I named the other grade level teacher and said that that teacher had seen my teacher come out of the same bathroom stall with me on several occasions. That she had seen my teacher hold me in her arms like you would a kid with a hand between my legs. And other things that that teacher had seen. I also said other kids saw things too, because this teacher would often pull me into her lap in class, whether kids were there or not. She had her desk so that kids would have to turn around to look at her. I mean, obviously she arranged it that way so that she could do things without getting caught. She also had a strategically placed stack of books on her desk, so if she had me stand a certain way, someone would have to come around to see that her hands were either up my skirt or down my pants.

34:13 It is. I appreciate your detailed description. It. It paints such a very clear picture of how childhood sexual abuse happens. Yeah. And how the police department is so inadequate it. Processing and being aware of sensitivities and. Yeah. Thank you for.

34:53 I'm sure that they're probably better trained now.

34:57 Yes.

34:57 Because that was 30 years ago.

35:00 Yes.

35:00 But it. That was very traumatic for me to be dismissed like that and to have them believe her. It felt like she was saying a lot of what she had threatened was coming true, except for the fact that My family was 100% there for me.

35:26 I'm so glad that you had. You were able to tell and get help and that your parents supported you. And I want to Let you know that we have four minutes left.

35:36 That's what I was worried about.

35:38 Yeah, I know. So let's see. What is there more that you want to say about this portion?

35:51 I just wanted to say that she retaliated against me until I moved over a thousand miles away when I was 19 years old. She recruited other people, some of whom were some of my teachers. Most of my teachers were wonderful, but there were some of them who helped her retaliate against me. So I experienced a lot of bullying at school from teachers as well as kids. And she told her class when she got back from being dismissed that she had been gone or she was on suspense paid suspension. When I told on her that she had been gone because Donna Blatowicz lied about her. So I got bullied from some of those kids. And she basically made things really hard for me when she said that she was going to ruin my life. She did her best to do that.

36:46 How long was she dismissed?

36:49 She was, well, suspended, I guess, is the word I should have used. She was suspended for a month or so.

36:57 And did the police report that that you had been harmed and.

37:06 No, the police just. She never got charged with anything. She was moved to another school that had a lot more hiding places and a younger grade level for the next school year. And finally she left teaching after I guess enough and I don't know how many is enough girls complained.

37:30 Oh.

37:31 Because she left due to some girls saying that she had behaved inappropriately. And this was around 10 years after I told. So I don't think I was part of that group.

37:48 And then Catholic Church, as far as we'll just put them somewhere else.

37:54 Absolutely. And then she went and taught in higher ed until she died.

38:02 Well, I think that we're going to stop here for part run because we have less than two minutes left. And it's a lot to take in. It's a lot to cope with as a child. And I look forward to starting part two so well. I imagine we'll hear the ramifications of what you lived with afterwards. You already mentioned that there was bullying and that she. That. But next part two will be hearing the lived experience after and how you got to where you are right now, because only the people who are ready to share their lived experience and have it documented in the Library of Congress. It's a very niche amount of people who have done their work and want to be counted, want the world to know what that this happens. And so I thank you so much for being a brave voice and sharing this with us.

39:13 Thank you so much.

39:15 It's going to take me a few minutes. After I press stop, you will be sent away, and then I will send you a new link.

39:21 Okay, perfect.

39:22 Hang tight. Thank you.

39:24 Thank you.