Jason McInnes and Mareva Lindo

00:01 My name is Jason McGinnis. I'm 42 years old today's date is June 6th, 2019 the location in Chicago, Illinois and Maria and I are colleagues at the Old Town School of Folk Music and my name is today's date is June 6th, 2019. Where in Chicago Illinois and Jason is a co-worker of mine at the Old Town School of Folk Music. So Jason, I think my first memory of you is like I I grew up going to the Old Town School like since I was little and going to the well what is now called squares and used to be called before going Roots festival they lived in Albany Park Lincoln Square was like my neighborhood.

00:57 And I have like this early memory of you before I really knew you just like busking sound like a corner. Probably Jonas fertile. We're playing around like a different point of view and you're like a drug van life. You've been someone to have like no one to be around New York music store as I understand. I probably encountered you there. That's my mentor. But so remind me of how you first like kind of got involved at the school. I started as a student in 2000 and it was

01:42 Yeah, I had I had graduated or I started to I started at the school in 2001. I graduated college in 2000 and I had actually moved to Chicago to go to a Music Conservatory and had a nervous breakdown about two weeks in and then I didn't play music for five years while I graduated college.

02:04 Not doing music and then almost immediately like my heart was like you can get back to music now. No one's grading you anymore. And then and then I was like, oh, I think that there's this place called The Old Town School or you can just go and then that that's what I did. I signed up one summer 2 classes.

02:30 Guitar fretboard Theory with Steve Levitt, and he was called the early country on Sanibel now. It's called vintage country with Pinedale Tyler.

02:43 And immediately I was like, oh you all been here the whole time great. I think I'm going to stay here school for like 20 30 years of some of the people who stuck around the lobby. So you is that part of how I'm kind of curious how you got sort of enamored with the school's history and wins rocky in particular. So then then it was interesting. So I started in the summer of 2001 and then I was at the school on September 11th 2001.

03:24 And it was weird you no one really knew should we be having class what's going on? I was in a class of fingerstyle class and then

03:38 I had been to the second half before.

03:41 That's a class ended effect. I think I'm just going to go in the second half and that is where this guy who I now know one of my closest friends Mark Dvorak where I had seen him around but I had never really seen him do his thing and he sang Down by the Riverside.

04:04 And it was just like a biscuit Artic moment for like second half was just packed with people are like just looking to make music.

04:15 And so Not only was at so important for me on that day, but I was also like that is the guy that I want to be with. I want to know him and like recognize. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah right away like yeah, I was like that. What is that? That is what I'm going to do and that's an interesting thing because

04:43 As I've been thinking about my time at the Old Town School.

04:50 Inadvertently without really much of a plan. I think like what's the word I'm looking for.

05:00 What not internship like when you go and you study with that car and stop Prentice, that's the word like I had an apprenticeship with Mark Dvorak. I didn't really take classes with him. He didn't really sit down we never had a lesson, but I literally sat at that guy's feet forever, you know, I mean, especially like the first thing from 2001 until

05:28 I mean still like Ike I still like if I'm in the room with that guy I'm there to support his thing and

05:39 Any new he knows me as somebody that's going to be there to support like the community that that is a very different kind of education. Then I would have gotten if I was like showed up and I was like, okay teach me how to do that bass run like that or whatever or like, how do you do I just sat there.

06:03 And eventually

06:05 You know, I would be the only one left at the bar and he would be too and you'd be like like I'd be like picking around and he's got like hey, where do you learn that? And that's how I don't know. I know this is I call you know that and he sat down next to me and yeah, we used to close the Grafton like when I me know 10 years ago, it would just be me and Mark Dvorak at 1 in the morning in the back of the Grafton.

06:29 Cuz that how like Tuesday nights got started there Tuesday nights were already going. I got started because he does folk club twice a month and email it to ya on Tuesday. And so that ended at 11, but I still wanted to play and so right away. I saw like like the Mars going to stop cuz he's his job part is done. So he would move to the front of the bar and go have like social time with everybody and I would be like, okay I have signed and so I would I would had a mental list of all the songs that I knew that everybody else knew that we hadn't already played that night and so I would be like hope we can do cats love so I was like, let's do cats love and that's why I and I picked up his mannerisms and I listen to the language that you use to make people feel comfortable.

07:30 Like how does he leave the song? When did how did you get people to sing? How does he talk about the keys? So I and what what jokes does he tell I laughed as like I still allows jokes. I did everything that Mark Devore acted and then that's how I learned to lead a jam with ya. No, I didn't go to how to leave the gym class. I went I just hung out and did everything marked it later at the night. And then yeah. Yeah. He's like the quintessential song leader Frank Hamilton style of song leading in like, you know fostering like like that kind of environment where people want to step up people want to join you totally that makes a lot of sense. So he I know he has a love wins jockey that comes from his

08:30 And she like you can maybe done interviews with him. I think so he knew him until he passed. I think it's some point in the 90s, right? Yeah, and I he often talks about wind. So is that kind of how you became like aware of his story so that it was it was like Mark was the first person to tell me about like mention the name when straky but then it was really Chris walls when he invited me to get these kids together for Leon to celebrate at the Wynn Centennial which is what would have been wins traffic 100th birthday, and I didn't really know much about when but Chris knew that I work with young people.

09:10 And I was still at the beginning of that too. Like I was not as a long time ago. I was at the very beginning of my time. So you started like teaching after you like became sort of, you know, apprenticed by Mark Yeager teaching and start teaching younger kids eye swollen and no it was interesting that I forgot. My path is in 2001 started as a student.

09:36 And then I started working in the store and then I was teaching no one wanted to teach the adult class on Sunday. And so Jimmy t

09:46 Sad to me. Hey, you want to teach class on that and I never taught anybody out the way and so then teaching on Sunday and then the person that was teaching so that was at like noon or whatever and then they needed somebody to teach some kids classes earlier in the morning and I had never done it but I was like, I'm going to take while you're there do you want to do it but I guess

10:16 And then like right away I was like, oh, I think I like this more than I like working with the adults.

10:24 And so then yeah, I like made a few more classes and then I started teaching at the I was a counselor at this summer camp in 2005 and then

10:37 Hot at the summer camp in 2006 and then that is when

10:42 I was able to like kind of shift like 100% of my income and everything was coming from teaching kids how to play music cool. Okay. So like that's how Chris walls who is a long time, you know, helping to organize the wind tunnel tenniel at this like School 50th anniversary year. Also write in 1/8. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, right anyway around that time he reaches out to you cuz you're like total kids like program, right? So he he reached out to you and that was part of your impetus to like set up this Ensemble, which you called All Stars.

11:42 And that was just a bunch of kids that I had had in class that seemed particularly interested. And yeah, it was just going to be we needed to learn to songs for this one show.

11:56 And so

11:58 We had practice I think it was on Sunday.

12:02 And we had practice and

12:06 Yeah, it was just going to be one lucky put together an ensemble. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right then we got booked like for a second like everybody really liked it. That was a that was a thing.

12:28 That was so surprising. Like everybody was into having the audience was into having the kids there. That's funny stories about how everybody else felt like it was strange looking back. Now how nervous everybody was about having kids in the green room and like at myself included. I was like, oh my God, I want these kids to be treated like the artists that they are not.

12:52 Secondary people are something so I was like, so I didn't navigate some interpersonal stuff right away, which it continued through that anyway, right then we got booked for a Peggy lipschutz has 90th birthday the artist who was part of people songs and had been part of the Old Town School Community Forum with wind and talked yet. So that was so we had done this one gig

13:29 And then there was a bunch of time off and then someone asked me to do the pay starts at all. I guess we'll get I'll just ask the same 10 kids but by this time

13:43 Maria McCullough, who is my colleague and my best friend and somebody that I work so much with she had fiddle students and she ever the beginning like there was no federal program yet. He was teaching

13:59 Dental technique or whatever you want to call that styling to use musicians were there really wasn't that that was not happening at the school?

14:12 So that's when I say or I can remember how it happened. But anyway, we ended up with to Fiddler's in the young strappy all stars and that totally changed everything.

14:25 And then we cut that now we had to look more interesting Arrangements multiple instruments like like Melody instrument. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and then that was the one where the audience really like really responded a lot like

14:47 Yeah, I just remember this is here we go. Okay. Wow, but then I still didn't think anything of it really. But yeah, we did two songs again.

15:00 But then it was really I guess it was in the summer of 2009. We got booked Colleen Miller asked us to play the main stage at the Chicago folk and Roots festival necklaces huge stage in Wells park. This is only our third gig.

15:20 And like I said, it wasn't like a it was not an established thing yet. And you know, it was again like oh, I guess I'll just ask those same 10 kids, but then a couple kids couldn't do it and I am in the middle of the year that had passed that had met a couple other kids and they were into it and it was like, oh now one of the kids had moved to playing the banjo and we had a I brought in a cello player. There is Allison says, we had a fellow student who was really into it folk music. What should we do if I'll get her in the band. Yeah. So, okay now we have fiddle banjo cello and guitar.

16:03 Animate like on this huge stage doing for songs instead of two.

16:11 And then we made our own t-shirts and that was like those t-shirts were like, oh, this is real. Now. This is this is something we have T-shirts. Yeah. Yeah, we have T-shirts and have them huge gig.

16:31 Yeah, and let let kind of keep doing that like naturally evolved to a point where you're like. Oh this is this is something yeah, and I want to keep doing this and we want to keep ya Ray cuz the kids weren't so just to be clear. It's like the age range of the kids is around what orders are likely is not limits.

16:56 At all

16:58 Because it just kind of got pulled together. So randomly I would just be like hey you seem into this.

17:07 And it didn't matter if they were 8 or if they were 12 or if you want to come hang out with us on Sunday and then

17:19 But what did start happening is that kids were growing out of it. And I could see that they were going out of it kind of before they could and for the first couple years like it was it was not a class. It was like this really nebulous thing. That was unofficial. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was not a class. No one paid no one Peyton and through the whole length of the band 11 years. No one paid to be in the band and I didn't get paid to leave the band like on a day-to-day basis. If we some other gigs paid 50 bucks here a few bucks there, but do you like me and

18:09 But you would just be like we just talked to band practice and then be like we're so and so and I'd be like, oh, I don't know and like people would just stay just stop coming and then I get a note from their parents three weeks later. That was like Hey that person is want to be in the Band anymore. But that that leaving was really hard on everybody including myself because it felt unstable who's going to be like I started to like not knowing who was going to be at least gigs because it was less structured. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's when I started a mentor of mine Carlos Rodriguez at his son was in the band and he helped me develop them when his son was leaving. He helped me develop a a better plan for kids to leave where

19:09 Kind of I brought it up before the kids did that I could say hey so and so, you know, I know you're like 14 right now. I bet you know, you probably are going in high school or you know, and you got this other band. Yeah. I bet you're feeling like it's time to move on. Yeah, let's let's have a process you let me know when you want to stop Gino. Do you want us to be next week or do you want to bring we got a gig in a month? Do you want to go through that? And then after that then we'll have a party for you and and all the stuff. So today the members were very much empowered to decide when they were going to stop and it wasn't me. So we had I had when we had mon member that went until he was sixteen. Yeah. I know I would have kept going if I had in Spanish.

20:09 Let's make a new role for you. And he ended up like Administrative Assistant for a while and now you know is like going to college for music and right and so you also built a relationship with Ella Jenkins kind of through this group for a godmother of children's music. That was just one what kind of like through this whole thing. I'm elbowing my way in I will say I ruffled a lot of feathers and you know, how does Elmo work a lot of

20:53 Dino that thing of like ask for forgiveness not permission thing like yes, I do with this band so

21:07 You know, I guess I just

21:11 Route to hella or like maybe she would be at the school and I would start a bump into her and maybe have a picture or something and then like one one show she was doing at the school the school asked the band to play a couple songs before her cool. And then that's when we actually got to start to know each other.

21:38 And then it was when we put out that album like so this was going to be this would be like in 2013.

21:47 When I was worth the band the album came out 2014 but last putting that liner notes together and I wanted her to be part of it. So we didn't know each other so well, but I asked her to write something about win for the album.

22:07 A liner notes. Can I read that OSHA? So it's called a remembrance of winds track e by Ella Jenkins or you can read it and he's okay.

22:17 Windstruck, he was a big man with a beautiful booming voice audiences. Love to sing with him. He was a multi-talented performer and knew the history of his music is children's TV show was a delight. We were all inspired by him. He was a good friend and I miss that booming voice. I'm so glad that the young strappy all stars are learning about him and using their voices to pass along his spirit.

22:41 Yeah, yeah, so that was that was really neat to get her to do that.

22:47 To write that for us and then she came out to our album release show at the dock house, which was really that was like there's all these steps of the band. That was a huge deal Grammy Award winner for Lifetime Achievement at the dunk house it was

23:17 I just had no idea.

23:21 I had no idea that.

23:23 We were on to what we ended up being onto in 2014 and like I didn't know I didn't know the Old Town School didn't know like

23:39 There was just like there were so many people there. I was like maybe

23:47 200 people may be like, oh my gosh, this is so interesting to me because we're here and we're talking about you know, your Old Town School experience as you by the way prepared to be the Old Town special but it's like young striker was like parallel to that to these are all kids that went to the Old Town School, but it's all like sort of happening almost like parallel, right is your teaching at the school still through all this time? Yes, but it's like it's like this interesting thing that I think is very much a part of the Old Town School in terms of its community that it plays and in that Spirit like it's something that is done for the lick pleasure of like making music together and for like fostering a certain kind of community. It was like super in the spirit, but happening all on its own Yeah Yeah. Well, yeah it couldn't we could never figure out a way.

24:43 For it to be an official part of the school. It was a complicated for a a bunch of reasons for sure.

24:53 But it was that thing of like since it wasn't part of the school. And since there was no money being exchanged. There was no expectation on anybody's part for what should be happening. And is that thing of like sometimes when there's no money nothing happens sometimes when there's no money all this stuff happens cuz no one everyone's like, oh that seems like a good idea. I like that thing of all, I'm not being graded on the right and what I started figuring out and one of the reasons why I think that show was so big and a bunch of other stuff that happened after

25:36 Do a bunch of ways. We started being able to play a sac-like the kids could play an hour without me playing with them so we could book gigs that we could play at the Beat Kitchen and we could play at Bellows Lincoln restaurant and we could play if you're ready. Yeah and it right. Yeah, and it was like we were ready to go and then what that

26:00 When I started seeing though was that.

26:05 I'm at a constant struggle with the band. Was that really I wanted everybody to be in the band. But if everybody was in the band we couldn't have the band cuz it would be unmanageable. So that's like the gather all was like for everybody to be in the van in the gather all just a little bit. So they gather gather all that comes from wind straky when he was at the school. It was an what's up? That's open. Jam style sing along today. Old Town School Centric. It doesn't know what does that does not happen all over the country where you know, you can have sing-alongs or you can have old-time jams or Irish Jam or a blues jam usually like style or you know that you can have as an alarm within might only be one or two people that actually play the guitar.

26:58 You know at the Old Town School everybody does everything you you bring your guitar everybody brings their guitar their banjos or this piano the Shakers, there's like all the stuff and then you all sing and play at the same time like 30 people not for right now for and everybody else is kind of like

27:24 Intimate small group of yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, which is real different than when you think about you know, Ramblin Jack and Woody like, you know in New York, you know, like I was a smaller group attack people.

27:51 Yeah, so you have the Gathering everybody gets in everybody's on the same level you started Saturday know so the gather all was part of the first Friday. Oh wow, gather all came before the Saturday Jam first. Friday was used to happen for many. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah long until only a few years ago. Yeah. Oh my God. It's so crazy that stuff because

28:26 Yeah, basically I was just like I saw these kit I had all these kids in my closet then they could play and there wasn't much for them to do outside of class. And I used to go to first Friday and there'd be all these kids hanging out in the lobby waiting for their parents to be done because their parents were in Beatles Ensemble or whatever and we had had their yeah, I like doing their thing and I said well,

28:55 You can play like where are we doing? Let's go when I started to gather all which came from the I had originally call it the family Jam.

29:08 But that was oh my gosh the Gathering the idea for the Gathering of comes from my experience at folk Club at the Grafton.

29:20 I wanted a folk Club, but for families for kids like mostly it was mostly I wanted to empower the kids, but I wanted it to be but all everybody can come in. Right all ages even playing for 20 years. You never touched the Guitar. Let's do something totally. Yes. So so so I started but I call it the family jam and it was strange because not many people showed up and then the one that did it was more like wiggleworms age and the parents didn't play and it but the first couple were like this really strange didn't really work figuring it out. There wasn't a community yet.

30:08 Okay. Yeah, and then

30:12 And the gather all then the so then I was reading one of Pete's bucks and he mentioned when Scrappy and the stink of The Gatherer and I look at that description that you wrote was exactly what I was trying to do that I thought I was inventing but it was a thing that had happened for the years earlier but had gotten lost and I was like, oh,

30:40 Okay, let's do that. And then I switched it to the gather all wish change the just changed the name change the focus a little bit and then some kids started showing up. And then this one settler Play the song called Boy and cabbage down which I didn't really know but I was like, oh, that's the song and then we also learn boil them cabbage down and now here we are not like all these years later still happening. Yeah the first Friday. Yeah. I didn't make sense anymore. That's right. And then like in that Spirit was that about like how the open Jam at Armitage thing about to get to get back to my original point of that was that this young strategies were able to get a gig? So say we got a gig at the beach and we had an hour then I started seeing what what I can do is we'll have we have an hour of space.

31:39 But we'll we'll play for sometime at the beginning and then I was like what this other kids they can play one or two songs. They can't play for an hour. So let's put them in the middle that they can do their own one or two songs and then come up with us at the end and maybe play boil them cabbage down or You Are My Sunshine or something and it's so I started being able to get other kids involved even the young strategies could get the gig and then we could get as many people involved as possible on that thing to start to really grow the community and that was like that was with with the to go back to that CD release party. That was you. I had like a a bunch of young violin players from Wilmette one of the girls that was in the band and she was in an orchestra and so they came and played at that.

32:39 And also I had the Chicago Children's Choir that Albany Park group likes came and sang.

32:48 And that was revelatory like oh my gosh, look at all these people here in both with collaborators right continue just like involving as it always had the band was never yeah. The band was never about the band. The band was always a tool to get as many people involved if possible to the extent that the there's a when the band retired in 2019 hear a bunch of the kids that were in the band in 2019 started 10 years ago as fans of the band that they were able to keep coming to gigs. And then they start coming to gigs in an advocate you been here for a few tough wanted to come and play with us. But yeah, you know and right right and then you like end up being in the band and hopefully

33:48 That's going to keep going at the kit lick a bunch of the kids are now in college and you know, they're going to but eventually they're going to circle back around. That's why we need a strong as cool as possible because in 20 years those kids need to be able to come back to it the Old Town School and be the new teachers and be like hey when I was here, but you to play the song. Yeah, we talked a lot about this track is and maybe this question will be a little bit about this Jackie's too. But what's one of your Fondest Memories at the Old Town School?

34:30 The memory that I think about all the time with this trackies

34:36 Is that we were at the Peggy lipschutz 90th birthday and there was a kid named Henry that was in the band. And yeah, like I said, we got this big ovation.

34:48 And we are in The Green Room later, and he said to me like hey Jason, you know that the day clap so loud just cuz we were kids.

34:58 And I said what I think at the beginning, you know, they did clap a lot when we walked out but then they found out that we could actually play and that was why we got such a loud clapping at the end because it was like, oh they they thought it was going to be kind of this cute kind of thing. And then it's like wow that was really good and then

35:22 You know that that that's his cool. That's that's that's that's what I want to have happen like for the kids to be equals. And yes, they're young.

35:33 But that there is not is not cute that they have a small guitar. It's the guitar that fits them.

35:41 They can play and they have their own Artistry and they can be up here on the stage. Just like everybody else that people clap. Sometimes you're so kind of also on the reflective side. I think I know what are you most proud of as a teacher in its I would yes, it is. Probably the youngest Rockies.

36:11 Another answer. No, I mean it is it is it's the youngest Rockies but like I say like

36:20 I think the thing that I'm most proud of is that I'd I just hope that there's going to be a thousand kids out in the world that are going to be like, you know.

36:31 I went to a place where I was valued as me.

36:38 That

36:40 I Jason know that I listen to all kinds of music some of my very favorite performers are people that can barely play the guitar, but they bring what you know, they some kind of spirit or their songs or something, you know, it's not about being a good guitar players. Like what what are you what are you offering in terms of your spirit or something? And that's what I hope to

37:10 That was different than my learning to play music experience. Mine was like

37:18 Are you first chair or not? If you're not first here, it means you're not very good.

37:24 And maybe you should stop that was like, oh my God, that is crazy like that that we put so much pressure on I was so had so much pressure at such a young age. And now I'm like, oh, I don't know show up like practice like if you if you want to get better practice, if you're happy with it sounding like that. That's fine. That is good to that. There's no

37:55 Do more of that whatever whatever you like, whatever the thing is that is attracting you to this music do more of that and then if you can see, you know, I think even the kids they know where they have holes in their own Artistry, you know, they can play by ear, but can't read they can only read and can't play by and get it. And so I'm there to help them.

38:26 Be like that's not you're not limited cuz you can do one or the other just like your ear you tend to this side you tend to that side you was having and I'm here as your coach to help you strengthen your whole thing, but whether you get stronger in that or not doesn't

38:46 Your self-worth in terms of this musical experience is not contingent on.

38:52 You being able to do that? You know that but what do you hope your legacy will be as you leave the school. I hope that that's it. I hope that that that is just going to be

39:15 All these people that go. Oh they're going to go off in the college and it's already happening. You know, they're kind of thing like hate somebody told me I'm not so good at this and this like it's okay take what you can from that person and you know, but be strong and yourself take what you can and we're just going to keep getting better. But always know that there's a place called The Old Town School where you can come in and you can always come to the gym and you can always play music and we're always going to be here. Yeah.

39:49 Is there anything else you want to share that that's it?

39:54 Thank you.